March 10, 2010 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #591385inquisitivegirlMember
Why is it that guys are so unsensitive when it comes to girls needs, but when they have an isssue they expect us to bend over backwards to their needs (in reference to shidduchim) They are also so critical about a girls background but the fact that they dont have the best past means nothing to them.March 11, 2010 12:41 am at 12:41 am #796325
Guy’s insensitivities? And I always question girls over-sensitivities.
Anyways, in a few minutes AZ should be here and explain its all due to the age gap.March 11, 2010 1:44 am at 1:44 am #796326good heartMember
It’s an attitude they have as follows: if she doesn’t want to bend for me, why should I make it work, there are so many others out there for me… Besides she’s the one with the issues not me! Everything has to come my way!!!March 11, 2010 1:46 am at 1:46 am #796327
It’s an attitude that she has the problem NOT ME!!!March 11, 2010 2:25 am at 2:25 am #796329
These subjects are usually talked about, in the abstract.
How about some examples of such ‘insensitivity’ and a concrete
remedy to fix it?March 11, 2010 3:03 am at 3:03 am #796330
Actually in my personal experience the girls have been the insensitive/inflexible one, not all guys are the same. IMO if a guy acts insensitive, it’s b/c he is insensitive, anything else is just an excuse.March 11, 2010 3:19 am at 3:19 am #796331anuranParticipant
Inquisitivegirl, you are in good company. Women have been complaining about men’s emotional immaturity, sense of entitlement and complete insensitivity for the whole of recorded history.March 11, 2010 4:21 am at 4:21 am #796332HealthParticipant
One of the biggest mistakes in life is to make generalizations. Not all men are un/insensitive, nor do all expect women to bend over backwards for them. Nor are all hypocrites when it comes to backgrounds. In relationships, you can’t focus on the negative, you have to focus on the positive. If you don’t learn this early on in life, you will have a misreable life. In our generation, we have somehow convinced ourselves that we are perfect and therefore need the perfect mate. If people would be honest and stop trying to hide all imperfections, married life would be happier for most people because they wouldn’t have too much expectation from their spouses. Plus, if you think you’re perfect, you will never be able to reach perfection because you won’t realize what your chesronos are -to try to correct them!March 11, 2010 5:05 am at 5:05 am #796333
Just because women have all through history complained about that, does not mean every complaint is true.
Are some men, like that?
Sure, but so are some women.
Are ‘all’ men like that, absolutely not.March 11, 2010 5:08 am at 5:08 am #796334
hereorthere: how about couples learning some good communication skills?!?!?!?!March 11, 2010 6:22 am at 6:22 am #796335
The fundamental difference between men and women (tongue in cheek, because I am married to a really sensitive guy):
(overheard conversation between two women) “My husband gets a slight sniffle – he takes to his bed for a week, wanting me to wait on him hand and foot. I get the flu – he tells me, ‘When you do the the dishes, honey, the steam will unclog your nose.’ “March 11, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #796336tomim tihyeMember
Aren’t women supposed to institute sensitivity-training for the men in their lives?
I think we’d be happier coming into marriage with that view, rather than expecting naturally sensitive husbands. (Now we can blame MIL for not providing the training.)March 11, 2010 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #796337
itiswhatitis, Your question specifically directed at me, seems to imply I am not for couples communicating.
I do not know where anyone would get that idea about me, I am all for communication and better skills at communicating between couples.March 11, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #796338arcParticipant
OP the system is set up so that it favors them and they can get away with it.
Their feeling is why should I give an inch if she says no I have other options.March 11, 2010 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #796339
hereorthere: you asked a question, I was just replying to it. I wasn’t trying to target you in any which way.March 11, 2010 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #796340allboutmeParticipant
It’s an attitude they have starting already when enter the shidduch market. Since it’s so ingrained in there minds, unfortunately they bring this attitude along with them into there marriage not realizing that there will be no way for anything to work out. They always have in back of there minds if she’s no good I won’t waste time making it work, on to the next one! ‘Remember I’m a big catch!!’March 11, 2010 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #796341WolfishMusingsParticipant
Why is it that guys are so unsensitive when it comes to girls needs, but when they have an isssue they expect us to bend over backwards to their needs (in reference to shidduchim)
Can you be more specific in this complaint? What are they “unsensitive” [sic] about?*
* I’m assuming it’s not the issue WRT their past, since you listed that as a separate issue by using the word “also.”March 11, 2010 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #796342
Firstly understand that Men and Women are different. That’s number one, we are made differently, Hashem did that, we have different needs and different emotional make-ups. Men see things differently than women do for the very same reasons. While women want and need to talk, men want and need quiet. Where women can handle twelve different things at once, men are more compartmentalized and can only concentrate on one thing at a time.
Now for the question why are men so insensitive? Again it is the nature of the beast so to say. Women are made to be more sensitive and men need to learn how to be more sensitive. Where do they learn it? Either by example that was role modeled in their own home, by the role modeling from their Rebbeim both in and out of Yeshiva and from personal experience and discussion. Men are also not as intuitive as women are, so where a woman might instinctually know what another woman needs or wants in any given situation, Men claim they are not mind readers and have to be told.
I agree that you can’t generalize, but also that many times when we feel that a man, or basically our own spouse is being very insensitive in many instances they haven’t got a clue what we are talking about or why we are hurt. Communication is definitely the most important element.
It is true that there are men who are insensitive but if you tell them what you need, and teach them what is important to you, most try to work on themselves to accommodate.March 11, 2010 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #796343AZParticipant
I think it would be good for the CR if the mods don’t allow hijacking of screen names
It’s not volvie, it’s another poster who has done this before, and if he does it again he will be permanently bannedMarch 11, 2010 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #796344
Mochel loch. 🙂March 11, 2010 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #796345bored123Participant
I see a general denominator that people are always saying how he should treat me, how i should be answered, how i should be spoken to. I’m saying from a girl’s point of view – i don’t think most men try to be insensitive, they just have a very different nature to girls and when going into a relationship with a man, yes, you will have differences and you may find at times that they are not as sensitive as they should be, or even downright insensitive, but that’s where you have to work on yourself and explain in a nice way that its not the way to act and in most cases – the men haven’t even realise that they’ve done anything wrong.
If all men would act the same as women – how would we work on ourselves, and vice versa. Hashem created both genders in way that they’re not the same and that’s how we work on our middos and become better people.
I’m not saying that you don’t get the guys who aren’t interested in trying to become better and understand women better, but a guy before he’s married – how should he be sensitive to a girl’s needs – and if he is – he’s probably had too much to do with girls before he got married.March 11, 2010 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #796347
This is addressed to the ladies on this blog. To paraphrase completely (and with extreme apologies to) Lerner and Loew in “My Fair Lady” –
“Why can’t a man, be more like a woman?”
Women are so grounded, sensitive,too.
Especially caring, and thoughtful of you.
Why can’t a man try doing the same?
Think before speaking,
Now THERE’S a good aim!
Men are so clumsy,
With feelings and words,
Much of the time,
They are just for the birds.
Now take a good woman,
She knows what to say,
She speaks most precisely,
In a sensitive way.
A man cannot do that,
He hems and he haws,
And why does he do that?
Well, it’s just BECAUSE!
A woman will worry
’bout the comfort of her man.
Makes sure he wears sunscreen,
So he won’t over-tan.
Why cannot men
Be thoughtful like that?
Be smart and creative,
Instead of just “flat?”
Why can’t they, you say?
They were not made to be.
If they were, they’d be women,
And THAT thought, frightens me!
So that’s why we won’t see a real man tear-up
Because he just broke his best coffee cup.
But neither will you or I likely see,
A Guy who views life just like you or like me.March 12, 2010 5:01 pm at 5:01 pm #796348AZParticipant
Volvie: chas v’shalom. I never meant it was you!
I responded to your earlier comment and then made a request of the mods.
I apologize sincerely for the misunderstanding.March 12, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #796349
AZ – Don’t sweat it, I didn’t think into it deeply. 🙂 Good Shabbos.March 12, 2010 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #796350
Oomis, can you hear my APPLAUSE?!!!!March 12, 2010 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #796351
Todah Rabba, Aries. It almost wrote itself.March 14, 2010 4:16 am at 4:16 am #796352melechalmakloMember
there is a point there.. but it doesnt resolve the fact that guys have the ‘what can you do for me’ attitude. this is so wrong! the shidduch system made it so easy for guys to get a girl that they just sit back and wait to be served. the guy is the one that’s supposed to actively look out for the girl. not that girls shouldnt be sensitive back, but the point is that he should be making it his business to be sensitive, especially when dating. its almost like the boys have an order form. if she doesnt fill everything on it, he chucks her out. he wants her to always look good, always be nice, caring and understanding, always be into him, raise the family, she must support, run the house and the list goes on and on… while he sits back and relaxes… and if he’s insensitive, he doesnt see that as a problem because he doesnt owe anything. after all, this is all the girl’s job.
if the guys actually had to go out and work hard to get a girl, they would appreciate them more. naturally, they would be more sensitive. the insensitivities come from lack of appreciation for something they got with little effort.March 14, 2010 6:21 am at 6:21 am #796353
“if the guys actually had to go out and work hard to get a girl, they would appreciate them more. naturally, they would be more sensitive. the insensitivities come from lack of appreciation for something they got with little effort.”
I disagree. I’m a guy and I do have to work hard to find a girl, but that is not why I act like a mensch. I think that good guys (and most of my friends fit in this category) will not act any differently b/c they have it easier in shidduchim than girls do. A mensch will always try to act like a mensch, there’s no reason to make excuses for the guys that choose not to.March 14, 2010 6:37 am at 6:37 am #796354
I always was more sensitive and I was rejected not by the girls (who never got a chance to meet me) but by the shadchannim who decided that a girl with good midos should be matched with a guy who spent a long time in yeshivah.
So a guy who learned for 10 years, but had lousy midos was sent out on dates with girls who had good midos.March 14, 2010 7:59 am at 7:59 am #796355smartcookieMember
Hereorthere- that is a very big problem. Todays days people are so into “learning” that they forget about middos.
A top boy is a boy that learns all day but top middos is not so amazing to people.March 14, 2010 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #796356philosopherMember
derech eretz kodma lTorahMarch 14, 2010 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #796357
It’s like Purim everyday! v’nahapach!. Our society has turned everything upside down and inside out. It is not the fault of the kids if they are not trained and taught properly. However, without blaming them, those kids who are starting shidduchim or are already in shidduchim need to open their eyes to what is really going on in a real relationship. A true frum relationship is 100/100 giving and understanding. Anyone who sits and learns Torah all day should have learned that as well.
Our society has placed importance on the color of tablecloths, handwriting, crystal and china, what kind of car we drive, what kind of house we live in, and if we can pay the way for the kids to live a kollel life. I even remember the question, when was the girl toilet trained? So this is a problem we created by not “teaching” kids what a real relationship is about and what they need to do to bring about a successful union.March 14, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #796358
hereorthere- I think that’s the exception rather than the rule. Many many girls want a man with good middos, even girls from learning families.March 14, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #796359sms007Member
boys don’t mean to be insensitive, they just mean to be boys. boys are naturally different than girls. also, boys tend to put up a macho look that they’re so strong……, but in reality they can be softer than girls- that’s why they don’t go through pregnancy. this isnt something to be taken as a bad thing, rather its just the different natures of boys and girls. i guess its like that since girls are the more emotional ones and they have more of a sense of responsibility cuz they need it to eventually raise a family. not to say boys can’t be responsible, of course.March 14, 2010 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #796360
Metziut I believe you are right, but if the girls are not even allowed to meet the right guys, how can they ever get together?March 14, 2010 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #796361
It seems that any problems or lackings, tend to be attributed to the guys rather then the girls and the fact is, that it is far from so one sided, in real life.
I went out with girls who definately had problems that had nothing to do with me.
One had been abused and so any guy who even so much as closed an eyelash too “hard” was “a violent abuser” as far she was concerned.
Another had decided she was a paskening Rav and could pasken that the worst Loshon Hara she could possibly think of was something she could “pasken” was supposedly ‘not’ Loshon Hara.
She had no sensitivity whatsoever except for her own popularity, which she wanted at all costs, no matter who (including me) she had to hurt in order to have that perception that she was popular and liked by all the shallow types who cared only about agrandazing themselves, at the expense of others.
And still another at the end of the date, started screaming that she did not want to wear chassidish clothes and eat Cholent, even though neither of those things had been brought up by either of us.
She suddenly ran away after vehemently complaining she would not do those things as if I had told her she would be required to do them.March 14, 2010 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #796362
Not allowed? Mesh`ane makom meshane mazal, maybe go to other shadchanim?
I find that the best matches are set up by family and friends, not shadchanim, anyway.
It’s important to get your name out there, but once you do, there are many people who want someone with good middos who is not necessarily learning full time. Good middos are more important than anything else in marriage, and any girl with her head on her shoulders realizes that.March 15, 2010 12:19 am at 12:19 am #796363melechalmakloMember
boredguy: actually, i find just the opposite. the guys are looking for girls who can support and i dont find that they are necessarily looking for middos as priority. but whatever the case is, like finds like. someone with good middos will likely and hopefully sniff out someone who doesnt share the same.
what i was referring to is not necessarily the unsensitivity of guys, but rather the chilled out do everything for me attitude that a lot of the guys have. good to hear that you dont, but i think it’s quite prevalent, especially among the learning boys. their lists of girls who want to go out w them goes on forever and it gets to them.March 15, 2010 1:51 am at 1:51 am #796364
That’s why I personally am NOT looking for a learning guy per se. I want to marry someone who will be a good husband and father who is serious about serving Hashem, not someone who is going to pick me because I’m the prettiest and can support him. Whether he works or learns is irrelevant, what matters is if he does what he’s doing to serve Hashem or himself.
I know I’m not the only one out there, there are many girls who think like this.March 15, 2010 2:10 am at 2:10 am #796365
When I was in yeshivah and just out of yeahivah I had extremly little knowledge of shadchannim or where to go to find others.
Now 30 years later it’s way too late to find someone to have children with, not to mention that I hardly have a penny to my name to go out on dates anyway.
I was cheated and there is no way I can ever get back the lost time and opportunities, it’s over for me.March 15, 2010 3:22 am at 3:22 am #796366
melechalmaklo: I think that the problem you’re talking about with learning guys having lists and being insensitive, is driving some girls to look for working guys. That’s not such a bad thing in theory, but these girls are really on a level where they ideally should be with a learning guy. They expect the working guys to be on the same level as the learning guys except they also want them to be more mature, responsible and have better middos.March 15, 2010 3:35 am at 3:35 am #796367HealthParticipant
In most cases family and friends make better shidduchim,(than shadchonnim) in my case my family ruined my life. I think the best thing is to find your mate on your own without go betweens.March 15, 2010 3:57 am at 3:57 am #796368
“I think the best thing is to find your mate on your own without go betweens.”
If you are capable of that – GO for it. I found my husband on my own (he found me, actually), because Hashem was our shadchan. No one can beat that, and all He wanted for shadchanus was for us to build a bayis ne’eman b’Yisroel.March 15, 2010 4:40 am at 4:40 am #796369bein_hasdorimParticipant
SEE Original Poster.August 10, 2011 8:17 am at 8:17 am #796370MiddlePathParticipant
I am bringing up this thread because of the recent discussion about whether a guy in yeshiva should give up a little learning to make the girl he’s dating more comfortable by traveling to her location. On that thread, the argument was mainly focused on derech eretz, and who should give up to who. I don’t want to focus on that now. I want to focus on the relevance that discussion has to this thread.
It is a fact that men are not as sensitive/perceptive to the needs of others as much as women are. I think an average yeshiva student of marriageable age is not as sensitive and perceptive to others’ needs as he should be. There is lack of focus on that in most yeshivos. The point is, though, that he will have to learn how to think of other people’s needs, and this is especially crucial when he begins dating. No girl wants a guy who doesn’t think or care about her needs.
So, just for this alone, I think it is worth it for a yeshiva guy to give up a little learning to travel to the girl’s city if it’ll make her feel more comfortable, because he will have to get used to doing things like that: “Giving up” small things for her benefit, sometimes at an expense. That is what a good husband does. And eventually, he will WANT to do things like this, because he will know how much it means to his wife, and he will get happiness knowing that she is happy because of something HE did for HER. I think it’s more important for a BOY to work on this than a GIRL, because girls generally have this sensitivity/ perception to a greater degree, and perhaps should focus improving in other areas. But this is an area that boys should work on.
And aries, as always, your posts here are informative, well-worded, and correct.August 10, 2011 9:05 am at 9:05 am #796371jmj613Participant
MP there could be also a problem of how kids were raised at home and what bichlal did they see. i am very much for that the bocher would have to give up from his learning to go to her city. bh i am married for many years with all the ups and downs and its exactly how aries put it down and yes its hard and noone is born with it.August 10, 2011 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #796372bombmaniacParticipant
The title should be “Guys’ Insensitivities.” By making ‘insensitivities’ plural you require that the subject be plural as well. As such, the apostrophe must be after the ‘s’ thus making the word plural. When you have a subject that ends in an ‘s’ you do not add another ‘s’ to denote possession; you place the apostrophe after the first and only ‘s.’ It is pronounced ‘guyses’ but spelled ‘guys.’August 10, 2011 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #796373TheGoqParticipant
Hey Bomb is it Haifagirl’s day off?August 10, 2011 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #796374bptParticipant
Can someone refresh (or post the link) to the thread that discussed the topic of who travels to who? I missed that, and would like to read what was said.
(P.S> Middleguy – I’m with you on this. Barring very unusual circumstances, the boy should travel to the girl’s city)August 10, 2011 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #796375mikehall12382Member
MiddlePath…I think the Guy should go to the girl.
The story kind of reminds me about what Hillel said to the potential convert when asked to explain the whole torah while standing on one foot. Hillel responded, “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is the law; all the rest is commentary; go and learn it.”
just my 2 cents
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