January 20, 2022 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #2052977
So many parents ive seen dont want their daughters to go to seminary. These kids need it, dont deprive them of this experience.January 21, 2022 12:10 am at 12:10 am #2053050
Ad kan? The kid went to school for like 13-14 years already, 9 to 6 every day. B’H she is going to be married in a couple of years. Maybe parents want to spend some quality time with the kid for a couple of years in between instead of sending her away to learn something else from some other people they (parents) do not know well?January 21, 2022 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2053077
@Always_Ask_Questions you sound like someone who is 40+ this is an old model of thinking thats not shayich for our dor.
Viewing your daughter as a baby machine is unhealthy.January 21, 2022 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2053079call me rabbi jParticipant
I’ve ears there are some seminaries that the girls learn GemaraJanuary 22, 2022 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #2053508bored_teen 💕Participant
Feminists to the rescue! 🦸🏻♀️January 22, 2022 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2053545
Ejmr, you are following Rehoboam preferring young advisors to older ones with disaster to follow. If you aren’t sure what I mean, ask your wife to locate this gemora for youJanuary 22, 2022 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #2053538
I dont think its a matter of being feminist or not. I think that there are people who choose not to invest in their daughters like they do choose to invest in boys.
Everyone all of a sudden gets suprised when girls start watching tv behind their husband’s back. Did these families invest the same way in their daughters as they did their sons? Id argue its about 50% of what boys can expect ruchnius wiseJanuary 23, 2022 12:17 am at 12:17 am #2053578bored_teen 💕Participant
I disagree. I don’t think a blanket statement can be made that people invest more in their boys. Are there families where that is the case? For sure! But the whole baby-making-machine argument is balogna!January 23, 2022 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2053579
The disparity in ruchinus between young men and women is getting bigger and bigger.
But given that you havent left the tristate area in a decade you probably dont know that.
Hear me out on this, you are an older guy. If a younger rav of your kehilla came in and paskened a way you didnt like would you argue with him? Or would you say ” I am a talmid of *name a rav who has been gone for 20+ years*”
editedJanuary 23, 2022 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #2053805
EJM > Everyone all of a sudden gets suprised when girls start watching tv behind their husband’s back.
I just do not agree that Torah study’s main application is substitute for the desire to watch TV whether for boys or girls. When used like that, you are not moving towards emes.January 23, 2022 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #2053913
@Always_Ask_Questions you’re missing the point.
Ive given up on trying to debate this point with you. Have a wonderful rest of your evening poasting on YWNJanuary 23, 2022 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #2053803
EJM, I think the disparity was bigger 100 years ago. From some lady’s story in Poland: father and brothers went to Rebbe’s tisch for yom tov, and mother and us were sitting at home, not knowing what to do…
As to the younger Rav, I would never vote to fire an old one and hire a new one without a cause just because “we need to attract younger people” or something like that. I also haven’t been to tristate for more than a quick visit for the last decade.January 23, 2022 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #2053967ujmParticipant
The disparity in ruchinus between young men and women is getting bigger and bigger. But given that you havent left the tristate area in a decade you probably dont know that.
EJM: Your above comment strongly implies that young women outside the tri-state area are doing worse in ruchniyus than young women in the tri-state area.
Why do you believe that?January 23, 2022 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #2053982
It’s very difficult to weigh the increasingly outlandish costs of seminaries in Eretz Yisroel against the need for the best shidduch.
Do we really want a world split between those who can afford to spend $30,000 on their daughters to go to sem and those who send somewhere in America?January 23, 2022 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2053988
@yserbius123 the whole seminary as an investment for shidduchim seems like a very unhinged and mentally unstable arguement to say why you should send your daughter there.
You are investing in them as people. edited
You want to find the best place that will help your daughters connect to yiddishkite, this will in turn help pass that enthusiasm on to the next generationJanuary 24, 2022 1:57 am at 1:57 am #2054017
YS, the cost factor seem to be the “keep up with Joneses” phenomenon.
For those who go into chinuch, seminary is, of course, a prudent investment into future profession.
For people with more income, $30K/year is higher than BY but comparable/lower to college, and they can go to places where classes will be transferred for college credit.
Now for those in between, who are getting substantial discounts in schools and who plan to have grants/loans for college or do not plan to go there, the $30K is a shocking number.January 24, 2022 1:58 am at 1:58 am #2054018
YS, a more important question is why do people lean so much on this “gap year” to bring enthusiasm in children. Why not send them to EY during middle or high school years? On one hand, they are less capable of being away from family, on the other hand, they are not yet at the age of getting in trouble ;). What surprises me is the uniformity of acceptable behavior.January 24, 2022 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2054094GadolhadorahParticipant
AAQ: Many parents are not yet comfortable with their yinglach going off on their own overseas while in their early teens. This would include seminary in EY or any other “year abroad”January 24, 2022 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #2054111
I understand the logical reasons parents send their girls to sem, but let’s talk real world over here. For many many people it’s simply unaffordable. And for those that can afford it, shidduchim factor in way more than they probably should in choosing the “right” seminary.
And seminary costs are significantly more than college. You can go to a local college and sleep at home, pay in-state tuition costs, and get a full 4 year degree for less than half of one year in seminary.January 24, 2022 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2054117
GH, I understand. Still, it may depend on a teen and on parents. If the experience is so transformational and inspiring (and I think for many it is), then why delay it. Maybe send a responsible older teen with younger ones to learn in the same place.
Again, I understand that this is an obviously right choice for those who will become chinuch/ community professionals, my question is for those who will go into professions. How many years are required to form a responsible Jewish person, who will continue to be shomer Torah and mitzvos and continue learning and participating in the community? We are often creating a hard step off – the kid learns, learns, and then suddenly he is responsible for family, work, college, all at the same time. I’d rather see kids gradually becoming responsible – go to work or college under parental supervision to make sure they continue mitzvos and learning in that environment, and do not acquire bad ideas, and then know how they’ll support family before getting married. Rambam writes along similar lines – get a job, house, get married.January 24, 2022 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #2054136
Yserbius – i haven’t seen that line of motivation for seminary attendance anywhere except from people on the outside degrading them for it. Is that because it’s one of those myths about the charedi community that people like to perpetuate, or just that it ain’t really like that out of New york?
(PS this question isn’t covid related so I’m guessing you won’t mind responding without calling me names, I hope)January 24, 2022 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #2054137
Also, I don’t know anywhere that they can get a degree for less than the cost of seminary (which I think is more like 21k than 30k)January 24, 2022 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #2054244anonymous JewParticipant
Syagl, one years tuition at Queens College is $18,700January 24, 2022 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #2054262
“You can go to a local college and sleep at home, pay in-state tuition costs, and get a full 4 year degree for less than half of one year in seminary.”
“one years tuition at Queens College is $18,700”
at 18.7 a year, 4 years would be $74,000. Which is not half of one year of seminary. I’m assuming there’s a typo in here?January 24, 2022 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #2054271
That’s if you’re paying full tuition as an out-of-state student. Try Queensborough as a New York City resident.January 24, 2022 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2054283
Syag > i haven’t seen that line of motivation for seminary attendance anywhere except from people on the outside
My daughters were told, repeatedly, by their primary teacher that their lives will be ruined without a seminary, they’ll have no friends, possibly something about shidduch also that they did not pass to us.January 24, 2022 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #2054293
AAQ – no offense, and I don’t normally call people out on personal ocurrances, but I just don’t buy it. Many of the stories you have told about your daughters experiences in school are very very VERY hard to believe as true, but this one just doesn’t cut it.
Obviously I can’t say it didn’t happen, but I will tell you that I have had enough bad experiences in many schools across a handful of states and I still would say…. sorry, didn’t happen. I DO believe, based on our many interactions, that you believe it happened. I wish someone else was there who could reframe it for you.January 24, 2022 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #2054295
Yserbius – you made a statement that I was trying to understand so I asked you to clarify. You responded with info that didn’t match and now you are saying it isn’t actually the info you were referencing. So seriously, I have no interest in arguing, I was really curious if that was true or if you just meant it loosely to make the point that sem is costly.January 24, 2022 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #2054345
and I don’t believe that our schools are so way worse than all other perfect places. I did hear good things about schools in your area, though.
It may be that I get more information because we are not always flowing according to directions. If a kid comes home and says “I wonna go to seminary!!!” and you say “great, let me know which one”, then it is the end of the story. When we said “not great, let’s discuss what are your plans for the future”, the kid goes back to the teacher, and the teacher says something they did not say to your kid, etc. This is not always a bad experience also. We had great discussions with principals who were willing to change teachers, do other adjustments, and shared with us difficulties of what they are confronted with. We would also go a long way to support such great principals/teachers.
I may be guilty here of quoting only difficulties because this is worth discussing to make our communities better.January 24, 2022 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #2054353
At first I was going to say that there is a good chance that your daughters are misrepresenting their teacher’s words, as most children of all ages will do, especially when wanting to plead their case. But after all our conversations here I have seen you take 90% of the things I say and turn them into other things, which i thought was intentional but then came to the conclusion it is how you receive/interpret it. So when you are in defense mode, which you definitely are with those schools, and your child says something in the name of the teacher that you disagree with, no doubt it sounds louder and more aggressive in your ears. You should seriously consider a mediator to hear out what you think the school says and find out from the schools what they really say.
I think that you have displayed a fair amount of skepticism about the lifestyle they were learning about and I would have to question your ability to fairly interpret anything you hear coming from them. I also know that that is a very difficult position for your girls to be in. The catch 22 now is that you have spent all your posting years feigning innocence over all the derogatory comments about the bais yaakov life and system, claiming you don’t even know what I am referring to when I point it out. So now you won’t be able to tell me you held your tongue in front of your girls because that would be an admission that you are actually aware. And trust me, there aint no way they didn’t pick up on it whether you “meant it” or not.January 24, 2022 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #2054349
Here is a story of a great principal. I was in a meeting way away from schools with no windows, and did not know that a snowstorm started. So, I was way way late to pick up kids, while driving slowly on a frozen highway. When I made to school, kids were with the (very elderly) principal and everyone else was long gone. After apologizing, I offered him a ride home. He looked at me angrily and said “I need to be back at school at 7am”. I offered to take him back at 7am. He dismissed me and went to his snowed car and was there next day before everyone else, of course.January 25, 2022 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #2054495
Can we at very least agree that for the amount of money seminary costs, the sem should at very least supply three full meals a day and a full Shabbos? I know this was the case in 2021 when sems were forced to make girls stay in all the time, but did it continue?January 25, 2022 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #2054516
so are you really telling me you made those figures up?
You literally just made my day!
😉January 26, 2022 1:57 am at 1:57 am #2054744
There is a google doc flowing around internet that people edit with school costs. When I find it again, I’ll quote.
Syag > and find out from the schools what they really say.
I did go and talk to that teacher during PTA, (and to other teachers, and to the principal whom I knew for years). Her focus was on asking me when is the time to apply for seminary. I was politely evasive about it, she then paternalistically (maternalistically?) said – if you can’t afford, I can help you find one that is free/affordable (I am glad that the school is not sharing financial info with teachers :). In her defense, I do not wear a hat like her husband, and our kids transferred from another school that the teacher considers inferior (“I know less chazal than others” cried one for several first months), so the teacher seemingly was in “kiruv” mode. School concern for the kids had a limit though: when we decided to leave, two of the girls made an awesome offer that I could not refuse – they would do secular subjects in a different place and go for some of the Jewish classes at BY. I was very proud of them. But it was a non-starter for the school – “what if others ask for the same”.
I think we zeroed on the reason for our different perception (in addition to possibly better schools in your big city): many schools work if you are satisfied with the product – either you fit into their worldview exactly or/and you are not aware of what you are missing. I don’t think it is an issue only in small communities. I know of a couple of families that moved to a too-“frum” NY satellite cities and were politely told by numerous schools that “you will not be happy here”. Maybe it is a by-product of spectacular growth of our communities in recent decades.January 26, 2022 2:01 am at 2:01 am #2054784
“I did go and talk to that teacher during PTA”
i specifically said mediator.January 26, 2022 2:10 am at 2:10 am #2054787
I also tried a mediator, I asked shailos, etc.
I appreciate your help trying to manage my affairs over the newsgroup. I am fine, thanks. I am trying to discuss general issues here, using my experiences as an illustration. you are questioning my every word, pushing me for more illustrations, and then you don’t believe those.January 26, 2022 2:23 am at 2:23 am #2054790
sorry for upsetting you. I actually didn’t want any illustrations, I’ve tried to pin you down on accusations you’ve made and you usually respond with lots of anecdotes that I felt just carried the conversations off topic. I also wouldn’t imagine you rebuffing the “management of your affairs over the newsgroup” when you are usually the first one to give advice to people who may not have asked for any. (“I had a runny nose yesterday” gets a response of – maybe you should contact the custodian of your shul or the rabbi and ask them if you can measure the airflow in the vents. Are people in your shul careless? Are they spreading covid and causing deaths? here are some ideas for you to make your congregation into better people….etc) Given that, I wouldn’t have thought you would be bothered by being on the receiving end.
Regardless, I’m sorry it bugs you. Really. I can’t tell you I will be able to let your condescending remarks about the system go unchallenged, but i will do my best to address you more sensitively. I will also suggest that sometimes when you realize you have spoken in error, it is less painful to just retract then to elaborate with tangential stories that you didn’t really want to share. Maybe we will meet halfway.January 26, 2022 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #2055100
Syag, I am very interested in your or others’ challenges, but please talk to the substance rather than just saying that you disagree.
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