Hair showing in front/side of tichel/shaitel

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  • #595536

    the.nurse
    Member

    I was wondering if anyone knows the source for this:

    Is any hair at all allowed to be showing in front/side of a tichel/shaitel? If it is, how much? Again, looking for sources.

    Thanks

    #791938

    oomis
    Participant

    I was taught a tefach’s worth (the size of your fist). I do not recall the source for it though. Sorry. I cover it entirely anyway.

    #791939

    bpt
    Participant

    If I remember correctly, up to a tefach exposed (cumulative, not a tefach from the hairline and back) is still in the green zone as far as making a brocha.

    In practical application, if you’re a rebbetzin (or just want to look like one) the techil goes just above the eyebrows, (and the ears are covered as well.)

    If you wear leggings (no, not tights…leggings) under your skirt, then your bandanna can push the tefach limit to the max!

    #791940

    Feif Un
    Participant

    The Rama (OC 75:2) states that you can say Shema in front the the hair that normally sticks out from under a hat.

    R’ Moshe zt”l (Igros Moshe EH 1:58) quotes a Gemarah in Brachos (24a) that states a tefach is considered ervah. Therefore, R’ Moshe says, less than a tefach is not a problem.

    #791941

    me too
    Member

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    Here are names dont know location

    #791942

    The Chofetz Chaim in Geder Olam says no. Nothing may be showing.

    It’s printed together with a biography written by his son (his son wrote it since bogus biographies were published when the CC passed on). He quotes his father (the Chofetz Chaim) as telling him that anything he wrote or demanded is halocha. He never ever sought to impose chumras or middas chasidus upon others.

    I think the CC does permit boby socks (when a proper skirt is worn)

    #791943

    dunno
    Member

    I think it’s according to R’ Moshe that an inch is allowed to show. Can anyone confirm this?

    #791944

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Many years ago, Rav Bulman zt”l told my wife that two fingers of hair may show.

    #791945

    aries2756
    Participant

    I was also taught that two fingers was permitted but i also do my best to keep everything under wraps. I believe the old saying if you give an inch they take a yard comes into play. When anything is offered as allowable, it is exaggerated to be whatever anyone’s interpretation it becomes.

    I don’t know any Rav who said a woman can take out any length of hair and intergrate it with their sheitel or over their fall, and yet it has become too common a practice. Whether it is from the front, the sides or the back. And I know that many husbands are too afraid to say anything and if a mother says anything a daughter will say “my husband didn’t say anything”. A Rav in a shul does not wish to chase away their kehillah and make the women mad at them so they say nothing. Men do not want to criticize their wives because that is not appropriate. So unless women choose to go to a shiur where they hear it is wrong and choose to take that to heart or unless they are having trouble conceiving and their Rav suggests that being very makpid in covering our hair appropriately is a very big inyan, then we really need to just lead by example.

    The sheitel machers are really the ones who should tell the truth in this case. If they are asked they SHOULD know the halacha and speak the truth. They are very capable of making young women look gorgeous without taking out their hair. So maybe it should be a shiur given to sheitel machers and ideas given to them how to give over this information as well as Kallah Teachers.

    #791946

    s2021
    Member

    oooo this is a dangerous topic.. the hair thing is soooo iffy

    #791947

    hubby.nurse
    Participant

    Every1 answered very nice, but can you show hair outside on the street? any hair?

    #791948

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I remember the tefach and two finger conversations among us when we were younger but then I thought I learned it was cumulative and not so pashut. I decided to cover it all completely so I don’t remember what the details were. And since I never remember sources I guess it’s kind of useless info anyway 🙁

    #791949

    the.nurse
    Member

    i guess this question would be more for women who are or have been married… when you put on a tichel, unless you are covering your ears as well, you are bound to show some hair in that small area above/in front of your ear.. do women out there know what i am talking about? i guess that’s really my question.

    #791950

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Aries,

    If a tefach (or possibly 2) are allowed, and women are pulling out less than that to put over their sheital, why would that be wrong?

    #791951

    you are bound to show some hair in that small area above/in front of your ear..

    I don’t remember (although I just went through it) but I think the little that falls out is permitted according to the Chofetz Chaim in the same sefer.

    #791952

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    SJSinNYC,

    Aries,

    If a tefach (or possibly 2) are allowed, and women are pulling out less than that to put over their sheital, why would that be wrong?

    Where did “possibly two” come from?

    R’ Moshe does allow one, but since the forehead is two tefachim wide, he only allows a half of a tefach deep, and he does not even recommend doing that, as the Chasam Sofer doesn’t allow anything.

    #791953

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    R’ Moshe says a tefach cumulative. Being male, it’s completely academic for me, but I’ve wondered how it’s possible to have that “envelope pushing” that people talk about with hair covering. If going by the tefach rule it would take a serious amount of math and measuring to ensure that you were just within the bounds at all time. 😉

    bpt: Your comment is another thing I never understood about women’s tznius. Why are leggings considered less tznius than tights since they’re so much thicker? Well, guess I don’t have to worry about it till I’m married and then I can ask my wife. 😛

    #791954

    oomis
    Participant

    The tefach I learned was cumulative. The entire volume of hair showing would be a tefach or less. So with a tichel, a little of the side “payos” could show, as well as a tiny amount at the top, and still be tzniusdig. To answer Aries, that also would allow for a small amount of hair to go over the top of a shaitel, to make it look more like the shaitel is natural hair. I never did this myself, but know people who do.

    #791955

    bpt
    Participant

    “guess I don’t have to worry about it till I’m married”

    Who knows, Itche.. you / your wife (b’korov mamash!) maybe A-ok with the leggings look, and then you are good to go.

    The diff between tights and leggings is this: tights get worn inside shoes (and are in many ways more tzinus than hose are)

    Leggings are more akin to pants, and that is going in a direction we try to avoid

    In the NY metro area, the leggings look is considered to be very modern. If my wife were to wear that look, my kids would be looking for a new yeshiva, I’d be looking for a new shul, ect.

    Not a problem in all circles. A HUGE problem in certain circles. Hair sticking out from tichel by the ears is not nearly as big a touchstone as the leggings are.

    Still, it depends who / where you see yourself as. Maybe in other neighborhoods, the leggings are totally ok.

    Any other opinions?

    #791956

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I didn’t know that about the shoes. Guess I don’t stare.

    #791957

    jewish source
    Participant

    I think the idea is simple, if the Rabanim would assur “any” hair showing, then women would take it too far IE cleaning for Pesach.In truth its impossible to cover all hair unless you would shave it off, now that’s not what most of us do. so the Rabanim gave us a geder because Lo nitnah Torah lemalachei hashares and its an inevitable situation that a lady faces every single second.If not for the specific amount that R Moshe ZTL said then we would go back to the days in Europe where many did not cover there hair CHAS VESHALOM

    #791958

    bbubbee
    Participant

    If you would like to see an illustration of what is Mutar & Osor in the opinion of Rav Falk, he put out a Sefer that has exact illustrations as to what is considered Ervah & what is not. How far back a Tichel can be in the front, sides & also the back, when wearing a Hat.

    The best thing would be to go to your Rav or Rebbitzen, and ask them what is the Minhag that your community follows.

    #791959

    m in Israel
    Member

    SJSinNYC —

    Even according to the Poskim who are matir it, my understanding is that they are addressing a bedieved situation — i.e. if a man is in the presence of a woman with this amount of hear showing, can he make a bracha. They are not stating that it is fine for a woman to intentionally show her hair. Also it is generally explained as this is an amount that often will slip out (as mentioned by previous poster, over the ears or if the tichel slips a bit), and is cumulative. Sheitels/ falls that are designed to “blend” with your hair to create a more natural hairline are certainly not in the spirit of this psak, and in my experience unfortunately don’t even meet the letter of the psak (i.e. much more than “one finger” worth is being shown). It is a similar issue for women who really on this to pull back their snood or tichel and show a sliver of hair: if you start out according to exactly the limits, what happens if your tichel slips back, or hair escapes over the ears — you have lost your “safety zone” and are violating halacha.

    #791961

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    My last post was offensive??

    #791962

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Even according to the Poskim who are matir it, my understanding is that they are addressing a bedieved situation — i.e. if a man is in the presence of a woman with this amount of hear showing, can he make a bracha. They are not stating that it is fine for a woman to intentionally show her hair. Also it is generally explained as this is an amount that often will slip out (as mentioned by previous poster, over the ears or if the tichel slips a bit), and is cumulative. Sheitels/ falls that are designed to “blend” with your hair to create a more natural hairline are certainly not in the spirit of this psak, and in my experience unfortunately don’t even meet the letter of the psak (i.e. much more than “one finger” worth is being shown). It is a similar issue for women who really on this to pull back their snood or tichel and show a sliver of hair: if you start out according to exactly the limits, what happens if your tichel slips back, or hair escapes over the ears — you have lost your “safety zone” and are violating halacha.

    Let us get to the heart of the matter (once again).

    There are two completely disconnected issues with tznius. The first and the one brought in Halacha (regarding Brachos and the sort) is Erva. It seems to be the consensus that at least some hair (whatever shiur you might want to have, even if it is lip hair) is not Erva.

    Then we get into Tznius – the “non halachic/brachos” version (not to say it is not halacha, but the practial application for a male doesn’t really exist for himself), which is dressing in an enticing manner which will attract attention (which is against “halacha” (what I’m not getting into here) for women). This “shiur” is extremely subjective, with Poskim going from one extreme (such as R. Falk) to the other, as per “what will attract attention”. Ask your local Rov what in your area will “attract attention”.

    For example, if a woman is completely covered in red (which is not allowed in halacha, due to it being the color of Zonos (Rema YD 178:1), it would not prevent a man from making a brocha, since it is not Erva (as long as he is not distracted, of course).

    We have discussed this before, this is just a reminder for some and something new for others.

    #791963

    Everyone should ask their own sheila on whats ok for them.

    #791964

    eclipse
    Member

    bpt…I enjoyed your first post!

    I always wondered about that “rebitzen” look,until a “rebitzen” told me she has an unusually low hairline by her forehead and had no choice.

    #791965

    Clairvoyant
    Member

    Rav Moshe’s tefach was a b’dieved, i.e. if it happened inadvertently. Not c”v for an eishes ish to b’davka display a tefach.

    #791966

    Ofcourse
    Member

    I know the shaving hair thread was closed, but I’ve heard that the Skulener Rebbe, who is one of the biggest Tzaddikim alive today, tells people (even non-Chassidim) that He highly values women shaving their hair as a Segula for Hatzlacha and Mazel. This is even though it’s understood that shaving is not Halacha for all. I can only imagine how importantly he views not allowing men to see one’s hair, when married.

    #791967

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    bpt i always wondered what was wrong with leggings… i realized maybe it’s bad becuase they call attention to your feet. -just thinking

    #791968

    bpt
    Participant

    “what was wrong with leggings”

    From a technical standpoint (as long as the skirt keeps the knees are covered), nothing. Its no more attention grabbing than tights.

    But from a statement standpoint, it screams at the top of its lungs. Kinda like the way a hemline can be long, and it can be so long that it drags on the pavement. The message is intentional, and comes thru loud and clear.

    Not pointing fingers at anyone; just sayin’…(v’hamavin, yovin)

    #791969

    bpt
    Participant

    “an unusually low hairline by her forehead and had no choice. “

    Ah, but does she cover her ears? Now THAT’s rebbetzin material, with or without the title!

    #791970

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rav Moshe’s tefach was a b’dieved, i.e. if it happened inadvertently. Not c”v for an eishes ish to b’davka display a tefach.

    Did you read the ??????

    #791971

    sh9888
    Member

    “se’ar be’isha ervah’ – a single head hair of a woman is ervah, unlike other parts of the body where a tefach is erva.

    Note:

    – even not erva can be wrong i.e. you cannot just reveal a tefach below your collar!

    – head hair does not include hair growing on the neck

    #791972

    not taking any halachic stand, leave that for Rabbanim, but according to Zohar, any hair exposed brings curses Chas Vchalila on the home…

    #791973

    It is my opinion that the nurse is perhaps looking for a heter.

    Yes, i agree one should ask their own Rav whom they ask sheilos of.

    We have to remember that some women who may be showing some hair or maybe wearing a fall are new to being frum and so they have a heter to take upon things step by step. Therefore, what’s accepted and permitted for one may be ossur for another.

    There is a gemara of a woman who had very pious children and when asked why she merited to such, it is written that even the walls in her home never saw a hair.

    Some of us may want to look cool when we are young and later realize the mistake and cover more of our hair.

    A family member of mine, in her later years asked that all her hair be cut as she heard that when one in niftar a malach, angel comes and pulls out each hair one by one.

    #791974

    oomis
    Participant

    I was always taught a tefach of hair may show. Personally, I prefer to cover 99.99% of it. Just more comfortable for me to know it’s covered.

    #791975

    quark2
    Member

    Die – hard Chassidim are makpid on this. It has no source in the gemara, only in kabbalah

    #791976

    ovadiayosefrocks
    Participant

    Rav Ovadia Yosef saids the size of 2 fingers is allowed so writes Rav Moshe Feinstien. Others hold not even a bit.

    I heard that there are those that permit a tefach but…ask your local rav.

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