Hakaras Hatov for Israeli Soldiers (IDF)

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  • #612124
    Just Emes
    Member

    Regardless of any disagreements between the non-religious and religious Jews in Israel regarding mandatory Army Service for Talmudic and Yeshiva students – I feel compelled to state categorically: That every Jew must have “Hakaras Hatov,” “a recognition of thanks” for any soldier (no matter what level of observance or non-observance they might have) who puts his life on the line to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us. See one of the greatest Rabbis of our generation standing firm on this issue in the article below. It is important to know that despite our differences of belief and observance, which may be significant, we love each other as Jews and brothers and we proudly state our thanks to those who have sacrificed on our behalf. Also, see link to HaRav Gershon Edelstein’s (Rosh Yeshiva of Ponevezh)comments on this topic : http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/116494/rav-edelstein-stands-firm-in-support-of-idf-soldiers.html

    – R’ Ariel F.

    #1005650
    takahmamash
    Participant

    Shkoyach. Well said.

    #1005651
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Let’s look at the facts (emes means truth, as in the objective truth, not subjective emotions).

    There are some IDF soldiers who do protect some Jews.

    There are also soldiers in countries around the world that also protect Jews.

    It would make sense that the numbers would be higher in Israel, but this is irrelevant.

    (In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.)

    Either way, the facts are that not all IDF soldiers protect Jews (some may have other missions), and certainly not all IDF soldiers protect all Jews.

    You have also significantly diverged from observable truth by stating “…to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.”

    What you mean is “…to protect and save the people living in Israel from the enemies who wish to destroy them/Israel.”

    This is a very important distinction because your way propagandizes the Zionist bald-faced lies about Zionists claiming to be the universal protector of Jews.

    Particularly for a screen name such as yours, more precision is required, in my humble opinion.

    The bottom line is to daven for the safety of our brethren wherever they may be and let Hashem work out how to run His world.

    #1005653
    Just Emes
    Member

    First of all, nothing I said is new– see the article above – that Gedolei Yisrael past and present have stated this view. Second of all, while Hashem watches over the Jewish people, Hashem also requires of us- some modicum of hishtadlus(see mesilas yesharim). In this case, it is the soldiers who put their lives on the line to protect the people of Israel. Secondly, you seem to state that if not for some IDF action outside of Israel, Jews would not be targeted. Suffice it to say- I am not exactly clear as to what you are referring to — however this logic is flawed as there have been countless pogroms and attacks on Jews throughout our History -long before the IDF came into existence. Thirdly, you seem to think that soldiers operating on the front lines do so alone with no help and support from the rest of the IDF — this is not really the case – as the IDF as whole contributes to the success of each individual unit- just as a machine needs all the necessary components to work – for if not it would be inoperable. Fourthly, you sidestepped acknowledgement of Hakaras Hatov to those who defend Jewish Lives -which the Gedolim have explained is comparable to those who sacrificed their lives for the Jewish people in Lod. If thats not enough for you – I would employ the following kal vi’chomer — if for Mitzrayim(Egypt) who enslaved us, killed us, and tried to break us down – the Torah states we should have Hakaras Hatov (gratitude) how much more so for our fellow Jews who risk their lives day and night on our behalf. Lastly, of course tefilla is neccessary and it is not kochi vi’otzem yadi (our might) that we employ to win our battles -rather with Hishtadlus (our own efforts) combined with relying on Hashem do we succeed.

    Isn’t the Truth Sweet!

    #1005654

    “You have also significantly diverged from observable truth by stating ‘…to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.’

    What you mean is ‘…to protect and save the people living in Israel from the enemies who wish to destroy them/Israel.’

    Not all of Am Yisroel lives in Eretz Yisroel. However, when we say “us” referring to the portion of Am Yisroel that does live in Eretz Yisroel, we do in fact mean “us”. They are our brethren. This is fact #1. Fact #2 is that, were Eretz Yisroel to come under Arab control ch”v, the danger to our brethren would not in any way dissipate. Yes, they are after control of the land and state, but they are also after our blood.

    #1005655

    JE – don’t you ever wonder if he was really worth answering?

    #1005656

    Okay, one question for Hakatan, and one question for Just Emes:

    Hakatan, do you agree or disagree with the following statement:

    “Regardless of any disagreements between the non-religious and religious Jews in Israel regarding mandatory Army Service for Talmudic and Yeshiva students – I feel compelled to state categorically: That every Jew must have “Hakaras Hatov,” “a recognition of thanks” for any soldier (no matter what level of observance or non-observance they might have) who puts his life on the line to protect and save members of the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.

    And Just Emes, agree or disagree:

    “Regardless of any disagreements between the non-religious and religious Jews in Israel regarding mandatory Army Service for Talmudic and Yeshiva students – I feel compelled to state categorically: That every Jew must have “Hakaras Hatov,” “a recognition of thanks” for any Torah scholar who delves into his studies, because Torah study serves to protect and save the Jewish people from the enemies who wish to destroy us.

    #1005657
    Just Emes
    Member

    I one hundred percent agree- it goes both ways– Torah helps protect us with its merit, and yet Hishtadlus (in this case the IDF) is also necessary and should therefore be graciously and publicly commended for its sacrifice.

    #1005658
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    Your post did not live up to your namesake, as I indicated.

    Since you brought a chazal, I’ll also bring one: Chazal mention that biYimos haMashiach, the Romans will claim “look at the bathhouses we built (that the Jews used)”. Yet Hashem will not accept that argument.

    Of course, we have the Satmar Rav’s famous mashal of the arsonist who begins burning down a complex and then goes to get a fire truck and wants to be seen as a hero for doing so. The answer to him, like the Zionists, is, of course, that he shouldn’t have started the fire in the first place.

    DaasYochid:

    I wrote that “..from the enemies who wish to destroy us” is incorrectly phrased as it is more accurately “…from the enemies who wish to destroy Israel/them”.

    As well, I don’t see why a non-Israeli should have hakaras HaTov to an IDF soldier, certainly not more so than an Israeli should have hakaras HaTov to, say, a French soldier who protects the lives of Jews in, say, France.

    Israel, however, has a problem that, say, France does not have; Israel’s very existence is against the Torah and any support of Israel is de facto, if not de jure, going against the Torah. No such issue exists with France.

    See my points to JE in this post, please.

    The bottom line is the A”Z of Zionism causes people to improperly adore the IDF, which happens to also be the engine of shmad for the State of Israel and Zionism, and has them confuse Israel’s enemies as “our” enemies. “We” are not Zionists.

    #1005659
    bklynmom
    Participant

    This is a no-brainer. Just as Jews who lived in Europe davened for the Czar, his health and his army even more so should we as Jews pray for the IDF soldiers and their successes. Nowhere or no one said that they are the sole (soul) protectors, they are the “shlichim/messengers” of the one above.

    IDF soldiers have saved Jews that were hijacked in Entebbe and they are on call for Jews in trouble throughout the world.

    If we as Klal Yisroel would have been more attentive to Hakaras Hatov to the IDF and the government’s support of Limud Hatorah we would not be in the fix that we are in now!!!

    #1005660
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @Hakatan

    so arvus means nothing to you? according to your logic you shouldn’t have any hakaras hatov to hatazala in america if you live in Eretz Yisroel because they don’t help you personally out. Seems kind of interesting to me.

    #1005661

    Hakatan, on point #1, do you really think they don’t want to destroy all of us?

    On point #2, see Jbady’s post. Yes, I have hakaras hatov to soldiers who protect Jews in France.

    The Satmar Rav’s mashal holds true for the state as an entity, but why do you apply it to individual soldiers whose parents weren’t even born at the time of the State’s founding?

    I’m very unimpressed by your answers thus far.

    Just Emes, thank you for your answer.

    #1005662
    Just Emes
    Member

    Hakatan- i know you think you are trying to say the whole truth – but you are clearly lacking in basic history and the Piskei Halacha of the entire gamut of Gedolei Yisrael on the isssue of whether or not Israel’s creation was against the Torah. Let me summarize your position and then break it down for you. According to you – based on the shalosh shvuos(3 oaths given to Klal Yisrael) in Meseches Kesubos – it would be assur to allow the creation of a state before mashiach comes even if would be 100% glatt frum. The oaths that are listed include not going up to Eretz Yisrael en masse ( Yaalu Bi’choma) and not for the Jews to rebel against the nations. This oath would prohibit the creation of a state- This is the opinion of the Satmar Rav, R’ Elchanon Wasserman, Rav Aharon Kotler and others ( see the rabbinic journal hapardes 1937 on the Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah of Agudas Yisrael’s discussion on this issue). However what you do not realize is that many other Gedolim disagreed with them and said that the creation of a jewish state prior to mashiach would not constitute a problem as long as the borders of EY were not compromised and that the state would be frum. Furthermore, even though the state ultimately became predominately non religious this did not effect it’s legitamacy based on the shalosh shvuos. You see these Gedolim felt that if we are to go up to Eretz Yisrael Bi’shalom and with reshus it would be allowed to create a state before mashiach comes. See Rashi who explains the oath of not going to EY bichoma – as meaning – “bi’yad chazaka” with force- but with permission it would be allowed. This was the position of the Meshech Chochma( R”Meir Simcha MDvinsk), Rav Sorotzkin and the majority vote and conclusion in the MOeztes Gedolei Hatorah’s decsion in 1937 to vote in favor of Israel’s creation with the conditions mentioned above. Furthermore-I personally heard from Hagoan R” Elya Weintraub tzkl (considered one of the greatest mekubalim of our generation)that while the Satmar Rav did not allow it – Rav Moshe held it was not a problem per se. When I questioned how he knew this- he replied -I asked Rav Moshe myself. Furthermore, you will probably say- well the arabs didn’t like it so it was not with permission- but this does not matter- because in 1948 the British controlled the land of Israel and passed it on to the UN to decide – they did by majority rule vote in favor of a Jewish state -which all UN affiliate Nations must accept to be binding – just as any law passed must be accepted by all nations- in the UN charter they agreed to this. You then will say fine- but there was a war the day after the state of Israel declared independence – so you see there was force right- wrong!- because they declared the state with UN permission first and then a day later fought a defensive war agaisnt the arabs who tried to kill them all – that was a milchemes mitzvah by the way. Lastly , even the Brisker Rav who felt like that of Satmar, and others- said that because the MOetezes Gedolei Hatorah of the Agudah( in 1937 pre war europe) is like the Beis DIn of klal yisrael – the hashgacha will be that the state will come about -as it surely did 11yrs later. — SO you see the majority Gedolim vote and others- held no problem to create Jewish state – and although they want it to be frum- that still remains the goal in pre -mashiach times. (R’ AYF)

    #1005663
    HaKatan
    Participant

    bklynmom:

    Yes, it is a no-brainer.

    But the yetzer hara for this avoda zara of Zionism is so strong that people come to the completely opposite conclusion of what is staring them in the face.

    If not for Zionism there never would have been an Entebbe. All that is anyways irrelevant.

    Zionism is shmad. The Zionists have thrown Jews out of their houses and are plotting to throw many more out of the Beis Medrash, which is their country’s literal lifeblood. Yet people still want to daven for their success?

    As well, there is a fundamental difference between generally davening for success of the Zionists and the davening for the Czar that you refer to. Davening for the Czar was in the context that Hashem should have him treat the Jews well. Davening for the Zionists, on the other hand, is more of a cart blanche.

    As I mentioned above, we daven that Hashem keep all our brethren safe.

    #1005664
    HaKatan
    Participant

    jbaldy:

    There is a difference between arvus and hakaras haTov.

    Arvus means you daven for the people living there, not worship their idols.

    DaasYochid:

    I’m sorry you’re unimpressed.

    But I think that sentiment should be reserved for your own arguments. Do I really think Hamas doesn’t want to destroy Jews outside Eretz Yisrael? What does Hamas care about anything outside Eretz Yisrael? Even if they did care, their fight is certainly not with any country other than Israel. What are you talking about?

    As to jbaldy, please see my answer above.

    #1005665

    Just Emes, that’s a nice theory, but it was never made as a frum state. It was, from the beginning, founded and run by kofrim, for the propose of kefirah, and still is. Whether the sholosh shavuos applies to a frum state is not relevant to the state which was formed and now exists.

    I still agree with your initial statement that we owe hakaras hatov to individuals who defend Jewish lives, including IDF soldiers. But the idea of kashering a state founded on the notion of Am Yisrael disconnected from the Torah, ch’v, is awful, because that notion is kefirah.

    #1005666
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Just Emes:

    I recall the thread from which you copy and pasted that whole post from. I presume you felt it would be better for me to repeat myself rather than copy my own responses in that thread.

    Regardless, what comes out from your post is as follows:

    There is nobody of note who seriously believes that the Zionists had a halachic right to found their State.

    (Even the Zionists know that they had, AT BEST, a 50/50 chance of succeeding, viHaRaaya, look at what it took. So the pikuach nefesh alone would have been reason to not declare the State, even without the issue of the oaths.)

    Even if your mistaken cheshbon regarding the UN was correct, which it is factually not, that would only cover the oath of being oleh biChoma.

    It doesn’t mention that the Zionists took land which they were forbidden to take, like “West Jerusalem”. The UN intended that to be an international city, and it likely would have become an international city had the Zionists not brazenly chosen to go on the offensive and attack and try to conquer the Jerusalem, at which point they brought the Jordanians into the war and further sakana that this entailed. But that part was definitely biChoma and against the will of the nations.

    But it would anyways NOT cover the oath of being madchik haKeitz, of having sovereignty before Mashiach, even with full permission, or even coercion to do so, of every single gentile on the planet.

    So that’s anyways a non-starter.

    Regarding this “B”D of Klal Yisrael”, you are grossly misunderstanding this.

    As the Brisker Rav stated, the reason the state came into being is that Jews in Meah Shearim davened for the State instead of Mashiach and, as the poster there quoted Rav Weintraub, because the “B”D of Klal Yisrael” paskened that the State should come into action, EVEN THOUGH THEY PASKENED INCORRECTLY!

    The Brisker Rav and the others held, and this is clear in hindsight, that this “B”D” was wrong in their pask, rationale, and hashkafa.

    Psak: It was and is assur to have founded that State. Nothing to talk about.

    Rationale: if you look at that “HaPardes”, the “B”D”‘s “support” for a State was CONDITIONAL on the following two items (at least those two, as I recall), none of which were kept by the Zionists:

    1 – The State would be established peacefully and with no bloodshed.

    2 – The State would not interfere with religious matters.

    So their rationale was disproven.

    Hashkafa: Their assumption was that since politically it seemed like the State was going to happen that they might as well go along for the ride. As the Brisker Rav noted, Hashem doesn’t look at what Reshaim do; but he does look at what Tzaddikim do.

    And since these Tzaddikim paskened there should be a State (albeit conditionally), Hashem fulfilled their psak – with the disastrous results that we have seen, R”L L”A.

    As I wrote in that post, the Zionists have no answers.

    #1005667

    Hakatan, it’s silly of you to not admit that we owe hakaras hatov to IDF soldiers because you wish to nitpick about whether they wish harm upon all of us or only those of us in Eretz Yisrael. If I were to concede that point (which is difficult to do when we see terrorism directed at Yidden in India, France, the US, etc.) would you then admit it?

    You can blame the hatred of all Yidden on Zionism, and I won’t disagree, but that doesn’t change the fact that we owe hakaras hatov to individuals who did not cause it, but do risk their lives to protect Yidden.

    Whether you want to call it arvus or not, just plain ahavas Yisrael should cause you to be makir tov to those who save the lives of your fellow Yidden.

    #1005668
    Just Emes
    Member

    I am not saying that Rabbanim are happy that the state is primarily run by non religious jews – however the issue of whether that actual state building itself was kefira- still stands as mutar- due to a variety of reasons including the reshus and permission of the previous governing nations and authorities – allowed by a majority of Gedolim including Rav Moshe who was a gadol among gedolim. The question Hagoan Harav R’ Elya Weintraub of Bnei Brak asked Rav Moshe was most likely post the state and yet it was condoned. Furthermore- while many non religious jews helped found the state their were rabbanim as well who contributed to its founding and were even on the platform at the declaration. Plus as per the Brisker RAv, who was against the state- he said to his sons – now that the MOetzes Gedolei HAtorah of AGudas Yisroel( of 1937 pre war europe) voted in favor it will happen. The Brisker Rav knew that once that decsion was made- Hashem would inevitably create the state. Lastly, again the mashal of hakaras hatov to Mitzrayim comes to mind – for even if you are not willing to due the required historical research as to the diversity of Gedolim’s rulings on this matter – there is no way that mitzrayim who killed us , phyically and spiritually – is any worse than israel who for decades have allowed Torah students to learn in addition to financial support-as well as who provided the protection of the people by the IDF (with HAshem’s help of course) – we should certainly have hakaras hatov even to the state while at the same time stand up for our religious values and hopefully in mutual respect – change the country’s views for the better

    #1005669

    Also, Hakatan, don’t tell me that it’s the A”Z of Zionism which causes me to adore the IDF, because 1) I don’t like Zionism; I think that it does involve A”Z and kefirah 2) I don’t adore the IDF, there’s plenty wrong with it, and I would never want a son of mine to be there, and don’t get me started on girls in the army, r”l.

    None of that changes the chiyuv of hakaras hatov to the soldiers who do save lives.

    #1005670
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @HaKatan

    Who said anything about worshiping them (I know I didn’t). They provide a valuable service for Jews in a shver matzav whether they got themselves there in the first place or not is irrelevant. That in my mind should warrant hakaras hatov.

    DassYochid has pretty much said everything else I feel about the subject so I don’t feel the need to elaborate.

    #1005671
    Just Emes
    Member

    I am not saying that Rabbanim are happy that the state is primarily run by non religious jews – however the issue of whether that actual state building itself was kefira- still stands as mutar- due to a variety of reasons including the reshus and permission of the previous governing nations and authorities – allowed by a majority of Gedolim including Rav Moshe who was a gadol among gedolim. The question Hagoan Harav R’ Elya Weintraub of Bnei Brak asked Rav Moshe was most likely post the state and yet it was condoned. Furthermore- while many non religious jews helped found the state their were rabbanim as well who contributed to its founding and were even on the platform at the declaration. Plus as per the Brisker RAv, who was against the state- he said to his sons – now that the MOetzes Gedolei HAtorah of AGudas Yisroel( of 1937 pre war europe) voted in favor it will happen. The Brisker Rav knew that once that decsion was made- Hashem would inevitably create the state. Lastly, again the mashal of hakaras hatov to Mitzrayim comes to mind – for even if you are not willing to due the required historical research as to the diversity of Gedolim’s rulings on this matter – there is no way that mitzrayim who killed us , phyically and spiritually – is any worse than israel who for decades have allowed Torah students to learn in addition to financial support-as well as who provided the protection of the people by the IDF (with HAshem’s help of course) – we should certainly have hakaras hatov even to the state while at the same time stand up for our religious values and hopefully in mutual respect – change the country’s views for the better

    #1005672
    HaKatan
    Participant

    jbaldy:

    I disagree; it is relevant.

    Regardless, do French soldiers not provide a similar service to the Jews in France? Where is your hakaras haTov to those soldiers? Why is the IDF any different in this regard?

    Are you makir tov to every person who has done anything for any Jew anywhere? This is ridiculous. Or Avoda Zara. Whichever you pick…

    #1005675
    Just Emes
    Member

    Hakatan – i hope you will read these words very carefully- The midrash states that there are 49 ways to purify and 49 ways to impurify ( 49 to allow ,49 to prohibit) any issue in the Torah – and it is given to the majority of leaders of each generation to decide in which direction the psak will ultimately go (see Ritva Eiruvin 13 — on eilu v’eilu). I do not disagree that the Satmar Rav , Rav Elchanon, R, Aharon Kotler and others prohibited any form of state before mashiach –HOWEVER- the Majority on the B”D of Klal Yisrael (as the Brisker Rav himself stated) voted against this opinion and in favor of state with no violation of any oaths if given with permission , proper boundaries, and eventual religiosity of state etc.. Furthermore , R’ Meir Simcha (Meshech Chochma) agreed to this position as well as Rav Moshe, who was considered the Posek Hador even among Gedolim. The RIGHT to make state based on oath related issues has NOTHING to do with the individual or communal religiosity of the founders of that state – and deals only with the ruling nations viewpoint. In regards to Pikuach Nefesh – many would argue that before the state- as in the time of the Holocaust- we already were targeted as we always have been- and now at least we have an opportunity to defend ourselves (haba lihargicha hashkem lihargo)The Jews did not take Yerushalyim just because — they took it as is common in any defensive battle to push back the enemies in order to ensure safety. Now in relation to dechikas haketz (which is one of 6 oaths not 3 by the way) see Hagoan Rav Yechezkal Abramsky (the chazon Yechezkel)on parshus vayigash (46;4) who states that perhaps while in other galus periods such as galus mitzrayim and galus bavel Hashem prescribed as a set time for the galus – so that if we were to try to end it earlier (as the Bnei Efraim did and were punished for that effort) – it would not be allowed — By the Galus Hachrona – where the end was not prescribed and revealed by Hashem – every day is the zman “kol yom zmano hu” -and therefore no issue currently of dechikas haketz . He further states that “yaalu bichoma” remains but that it refers to going to EY bederech milchama – but Jews can go up Bi’shalom in peace. Lastly, as per the reshus of ruling authorities of land of israel at the time i.e. THE UN binding majority vote allowed them to form state bi’shalom. ONLY later on did Arabs attack (of which they might have done anyways) and we then as the Torah permits us -defended ourselves and by siyyata dishmaya survived.

    #1005677

    Are you makir tov to every person who has done anything for any Jew anywhere? This is ridiculous. Or Avoda Zara

    it is very hard to take seriously anyone who can utter this line and mean it. Your knowledge about the truth of zionism seems only to be surpassed by your deficiency in knowing how to express yourself in a way that respects other Jews, even when you can’t respect their ways.

    #1005678

    the Majority on the B”D of Klal Yisrael (as the Brisker Rav himself stated) voted against this opinion and in favor of state with no violation of any oaths if given with permission , proper boundaries, and eventual religiosity of state etc..

    So since the state has never, to our great sorrow, become religious, they did not hold it was okay.

    Please, keep the argument on topic, that we owe hakaras hatov to those who save lives. Don’t try to justify a state founded to change the definition of the Jewish nation to a secular one.

    #1005679
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @HaKatan

    Actually yes we should be makir tov to everyone who saves jewish lives. I am sorry that seems like such a difficult concept to you. Al achas kama vkama if that person is actually Jewish.

    You are creating a straw man here. If a french soldier was actively saving a Jew in a shver matzav of course I would have hakaras hatov for him. For example, lets say we have a French soldier who saved Jews in the holocaust would you go ranting about how its all the French’s fault for getting themselves there in the first place and that we don’t owe him hakaras hatov ?

    #1005680
    Assaf
    Participant

    About the comparison with French soldiers I think that it is a completely different thing to have an army which exists (according to its own mission statements) to defend jews around the world and to have a french soldier who happens to be defending a jew who happens to live in an area which he is fighting for for reasons completely not connected to jews or jewdeism

    #1005681
    Just Emes
    Member

    Daas Yochid – i think you missed one of the crucial points i mentioned- The Halachic RIGHT to make a Jewish state based on the oath related permission of the ruling Nation(s)(and lack of dechikas haketz issue -see above) has NOTHING to do with the individual or communal religiosity of the founders of that state – and deals only with the ruling nations viewpoint. Translation- yes the Gedolim wanted it frum – and if not- would not be happy with the development – however based on the purely halachic considerations of these Gedolim regarding the oaths -they would not have been violated in any way as per permission and legal declaration and followed defensive milchemes mitzvah. I am not justifying a modern state – in the way you think ie : everything is up to par – rather i am saying -no – we want to change it and make it frum – but we don’t claim that any oath was violated.

    #1005682

    Just Emes, you missed my crucial point, that it was still assur. I don’t know too much about the shavuos, so I’m not arguing it. I’m just pointing out that even according to your own words, the State of Israel was founded b’issur. You want to defend that because there wasn’t another issur as well?

    Are we going to be mattir a ham sandwich as long as the mustard is kosher?

    #1005683
    Just Emes
    Member

    dass yochid- you still so not understand- As per above- no shavua or oath was violated due to permission given by British>UN 1)-was not Bichoma/yad chazakah, 2)not rebellion against nation if they themselves legally allowed it 3) No dechikas haketz in last geula period. NOW, the state of Israel is by its nature a democratic state -meaning it is in principal religiously neutral and depending on who is in the majority of govt. so will be its policies. In the beg. it was predominately non religious- although, many are misinformed- beacuse there were recognized Rabbanim who lead the declaration as well with the hope that due to its inherent nuetrality of the state and the potential influence and growth on state of religious values – it would turn this democratically neutral state into a frum one– see stats which show that if the religious keep up birth rate they will be govt majority in decades to come and will uphold all delineated principles. MY POINT IS twofold- one- the shavuos are unrelated to the states religiousity. two- the state due to its democratically neutral nature – cannot be classified as frum or non frum but rather the will of the people of each cycle reflected in govt. and at times may be primarily frum or not primarily frum. Plus, there were many religious Jews and Rabbanim who did helped found the state as well – so even founding was not entirely non religious. Plus, although there were anti frum zionists there were also charedi frum people there as well in govt. Plus, if you look at history you will learn that although many in the beg of state were not frum- many still respected the Torah in principal – for example – when one of Israel’s PM’s was asked how you justify state they picked up a bible. The Israeli Flag of blue and white represents techeles and the two blue lines with magen david in middle represent Klal Yisrael passing through the Yam SUf to EY ( i am not making this up -look at the State’s records on this point). Plus in any case most of these non frum jews would be classified as tinok shenshbas(children enslaved by lack of religious education into certain ideals) and would have the status of a non meizid ( not intential jew ) in relation to the states initial frum keit. so you have a neutral state (not frum or non frum), a lot of tinkos shenishbu( not intentional and not guilty people), and open frum rabbis and jews supporting its founding so – i dont see why even acc to formulation of above Moetzes decision this would be considered anti frum if its democratic and can also be frum.

    #1005685
    Assaf
    Participant

    As an idf soldier I thank you guys for ur support appreciation and prayers

    #1005687

    Assaf – I think it is very sad if you decide to read a handful of poster’s up and back and take any offense. There are other posters supporting you and hundreds of real life people supporting you.

    Whether or not their hashkofos are right, there are more appropriate ways of having a discussion. But you really need to find a way to focus on more productive conversations or find real life people who can speak to you in real time. Pulling out these people and using them as an excuse to write the rest of us off means there are things that need to be worked through. Been there, done that.

    Thank you for putting yourself on the line.

    #1005688
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid: Long ago, I decided not to argue the establishment of the medinah-as most people will keep to their opinions. However, you mentioend that the “state of israel was founded B”issur”. Do you have any real sources for that? I don’t dispute that the leaders of the state were secular and wanted to change the jewish culture but why does that invalidate the state? And, please do not argue “sholosh shevuos” as this has been debunked many times. You do realize that R,Itche Meir Levin- the gerrer rebbe’s brother in law- signed the Declaration of Independence?

    #1005689
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Assaf, please don’t misunderstand this discussion, which is academic.

    I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.

    #1005690
    torahlishma613
    Participant

    While I can see why many people would be against the founding of the state of Israel, kesuvos daf kuf yud aleph states that if the non Jews break their oath, than you can break one of your oaths. While I still may not agree with how the state was founded, fact is, there are mekoros out there which would certainly say that what the zionists did was mutar so we shouldn’t waste our time arguing about it. What we should be figuring out is how we will protect the Jews in eretz yisroel, because I think defending our brothers and sisters is more important than whether someone identifies as Zionist or not. For this reason, I have great hakaros hatov to the idf, for they are enabling Jews to learn Torah in the holy land. Sure, lechatchila, everyone in the army should be frum. But the fact that they are doing the greatest mitzva of all, saving lives, shouldn’t be taken away from them.

    When we scream at them, we only make them hate us more. By us being grateful and respectful, should we hope that we can one day be mekairev them. A friend of mine said that he best way to do is kiruv is by teaching people Torah. Not by fighting with them, and not by screaming at them, but by teaching them. So let us all follow this lead, and may we bring all of klal yisroel back to torah and mitzva observance.

    #1005691
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Everyone: Arguing with HaKatan over this is pointless. He has his misguided views and we won’t change them. After 120 when he’s punished for all the sinas chinam he’s caused, maybe he’ll finally see the error of his ways.

    One note about the members of the IDF: R’ Shlomo Zalman zt”l used to go daven on Har Hertzel, because he said the graves of Israeli soldiers are kivrei tzaddikim.

    #1005693
    Just Emes
    Member

    Lastly: Regardless of the specifics- I heard directly from one of the greatest Rabbanim and Mekubalim of the our dor Hagaon R” Elya Weintraub TZKL of Bnei Brak- who heard it directly from Rav Moshe – that it was not a problem. Although he did not explain specifics as to why and how- suffice it to say – that if Rav Moshe, considered the Posek Hador, even amongst Gedolim themselves, held the states creation was not a problem(for whatever reasoning he held) the halacha stands. This in no way implies that we are happy with the status quo, we need to up our outreach efforts and explain Torah to our unfortunate non religious brethren(tinkos Shenishbu) who for lack of sincere opportunity are blinded in their views to change for the better. That is one of the reasons i started this thread – for i believe if the non religious on their own terms understand that although we may disagree with them for various religious reasons we have hakaras hatov for them and their children who risk their lives daily (with Hashem’s help) to provide security for the Jewish people living in Israel ( and supposedly abroad-but thats classified).

    As an aside ,See meseches chagiga daf 3 which states that a person will hear many views to allow to prohibit etc on Torah matters– and asks then so what should one do – make their ears like a sieve and sieve out the truth from all points of view.

    #1005695
    simcha613
    Participant

    Who cares if the state was founded be’issur or be’heter? What’s the nafka mina? If it’s beheter you must say hallel on Yom Ha’Atzma’us but if it was be’isur it’s assur? If it’s behter you must ignore all the religious problems with the state but if it’s be’issur you must ignore all the good it does for Yiddishkeit (like funding yeshivos and opening up the borders of Eretz Yisroel for Jews worldwide)? If it’s be’issur you must join Neturei Karta and support Arabs who want to turn the Land of Israel into an Arab state?

    I dunno, I think this argument is theoretical at best. Whether be’issur or beheter, the state is here. The question is what do we do now? And the answer is, whatever is best of Klal Yisroel, regardless of how the state was founded. It’s time to stop arguing about the past with an argument that has absolutely no practical ramifications, and start focusing on the future, how can we influence the current state of events to benefit Klal Yisroel?

    #1005696
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Perhaps my other posts were too long. I’ll try breaking down my responses one at a time.

    Just Emes:

    Just because you claim a Rav Moshe story happened that way does not wish away the many problems of Zionism. The State’s creation, according to all our gedolim including, for sure, Rav Moshe, was certainly a problem, and for multiple reasons.

    #1005697
    HaKatan
    Participant

    DaMoshe:

    What sinas chinam? I don’t understand.

    #1005698
    HaKatan
    Participant

    torahlishma613:

    Where does it say that we can break our oaths if the nations break their oath?

    It doesn’t. This is another Zionist attempt at wishing away the oaths.

    If one understands that the purpose of the oaths is to protect us, not as a punishment, then one would realize that this proposition, of two wrongs making a right, is a non-starter.

    #1005699
    HaKatan
    Participant

    (cont.)

    Just the pikuach nefesh problem alone, without the issues of the oaths and the kefira in emuna, is enough to have forbid founding the state.

    But the oaths definitely were violated:

    1 – There was no permission by all goyim to found the State, specifically the native Arabs and the British as well;

    2 – The Zionists fought an offensive war to take more than they were originally allowed by the UN

    3 – Any necessity for war makes the founding of the State violate the oath of being oleh biChoma, which even that alleged Meshech Chachma that the Zionists try to distort does not permit.

    The Zionists have no answers.

    #1005700
    Just Emes
    Member

    Hakatan- you need to understand a few things 1) The State of Israel, which by its democratic nature is neutral- is in essence neither a frum govt state nor non-frum govt state- it is just a reflection of the current majority – which can and (in the Charedim’s case -will) change in the future. The state was founded not only by nonreligious jews then- who made up the majority of the founders and who would have the din of tinokes shenishbu- (I.E. not intentional sinners)- but also frum rabbanim and Jews. 2) ZIONISM DOES NOT EQUAL THE JEWISH STATE- secular zionism on its own had the wrong views but with what they thought were the right intentions for jewish survival(hence tinok shenishba) -but the state on its own which is officially democratic and neutral is a separate halachic issue which was up for debate -and then paskened one way to permit it -followed up by Rav MOshe (for whatever reasons held). 3) The way to win any debate with well meaning Jews like yourself is to pull what i like to call the Gedolim card- you say Gedolim were against it – and i say thats not entirely true-some were agaisnt but majority were in favor – and we go after the majority (see ritva eiruvin 13 a and the midrash quoted there). Don’t sidestep this fact- deal with it-. The question is how to make it go from majority non religious rule in a neutral state to religiously valued jewish state. Also — see Rav Dessler ( i believe its volume 3. ) who states anyone can clearly see the hashgacha of Hashem in EY post the holocaust – do not turn a blind eye.

    Either way acc. to the prinicpal of hakaras hatov based on the Torah’s statements regarding giving thinks to MItzrayim, despite their physical and religious persecution- you must, as much as you might hate to admit it – give thanks not only to IDF soliders but even to the medina even if its completely bad in your view – for it would be no less than mitzrayim. But for me , who clearly recognizes the service of IDF and the support of state in general however mild to Torah instituions for decades -would require hakaras hatov. To not admit this would make you a kafui tov ( a denier of thanks). Please respond in yes or no format if you have hakaras hatov-1) for IDF(protectors of Jews) 2) and If you have hakaras hatov for the medinah itself ,even if in your view you feel it is A”Z, just as mitrayim was A”Z and the Torah requires of us some level of hakaras hatov.

    #1005702
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    HaKatan,

    In response to some IDF actions, some goyim have “retaliated” against innocent Jews because they believe the Zionists’ lies that Zionism=Judaism when, of course, the opposite is true. Yes, these goyim are wrong to do so, regardless. Obviously. But that doesn’t change the alleged “cause” of their actions, the IDF.

    I think you are giving these anti-Semites too much credit. I would argue that the State of Israel is more of an excuse for their hatred rather than a reason. Their behavior would be the same regardless of what the IDF does. Anti-Semitism was worse in general before the State of Israel was founded than after. What was the excuse then? After the Holocaust, “traditional” anti-Semitic behavior has become culturally unacceptable, so mainstream haters are cloaking their actions under the guise of fighting apartheid. We can also see anti-Semitism creeping in under the banners of other “liberal” causes, such as bris mila and women’s rights.

    As such, I think that religious debates regarding Judaism, Zionism, and the State of Israel should remain “internal” among Jews, and we shouldn’t worry so much about what the non-Jewish Israel haters think.

    #1005703
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    After 120…

    I don’t think it’s a good idea to make this type of statement about any Jew, even if you feel he is misguided. Note that HaKatan wrote this when addressing an IDF soldier:

    I wish you G-d’s help to do good for His children, and may you always return home safely and complete in mind and body.

    You may disagree with him strongly regarding the State of Israel, but I do not think he means for any Jew to come to harm.

    #1005705
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Avram: I never said he wants someone to get hurt. But he does speak lashon hara and motzi shem ra about millions of Jews on a regular basis, and one day he will have to answer for that. He has spoken motzi shem ra about me many times, and until he apologizes and asks for forgiveness, I will not forgive him.

    #1005706

    DaMoshe, did I miss something? I never noticed Hakatan doing what you seem to have just done – make it personal.

    #1005707
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: He makes it personal every time he calls every “Zionist” and “MO” Ovdei Avodah Zarah.

    #1005708
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DaasYochid: I guess you missed something.

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