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December 22, 2016 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #618898LightbriteParticipant
Just learned this:
A Rav’s book, it is meant for the masses.
This applies to halacha and/or his personal teachings.
When in question, one needs to seek the council of one’s LOR for a personalized psak.
Going by the book may not be enough. Sometimes people need something more lenient and sometimes more stringent for their growth.
…I was talking about how a Rav shlita’s advice to me was way more laid back than what I expected from his book. Someone told me that the book is meant for a general audience. The Rav spoke to me on my level based on my current place and needs.
Though… this makes sense because I heard that the Chabad Rebbe of blessed memory was against adoption but would send infertile couples wanting to adopt to another Rabbi, who was in favor of adoption, to assist them.
1) Have you noticed differences between a rabbi’s preaching vs what he told *you*?
2) Is this an obvious thing that I only now realized was common?
December 23, 2016 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1205871blubluhParticipantYes, this is a practical approach in most cases.
In our day, despite so much really good, readily available published material and so many getting a good Torah education, there’s still a powerful role in our lives for the local posek.
Just consider the example of a published halachic work. There are financial and time (to write, edit, publish and distribute) constraints. It’s just not feasible for an author to think of let alone cover every imaginable custom and exception.
Even were such a thing possible, the resulting tome would be so huge that just searching for a specific ruling would be a daunting and time consuming task.
December 23, 2016 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1205872MenoParticipant“Just consider the example of a published halachic work. There are financial and time (to write, edit, publish and distribute) constraints. It’s just not feasible for an author to think of let alone cover every imaginable custom and exception.
Even were such a thing possible, the resulting tome would be so huge that just searching for a specific ruling would be a daunting and time consuming task.”
I think it’s more than that. When a Posek answers a shailoh, he’s not answering a shailoh, rather he is answering a person. It’s not like he’s a computer that takes in all the relevant factors and spits out the correct halacha. He has to know what kind of answer would be appropriate for that particular person. Since every person is unique, there are literally an infinite number of shailohs that a Rov may encounter.
December 23, 2016 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1205873It is Time for TruthParticipantIn short , absolutely
December 23, 2016 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1205874MammeleParticipantWhich reminds me of this well known yet powerful story
December 23, 2016 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1205875Neville ChaimBerlinParticipantThe Lubavitcher Rebbe was really against adoption? Source?
December 24, 2016 10:32 pm at 10:32 pm #1205876Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantMeno & Bluhbluh +1. That is why we have Rabbanim and we are supposed to ask sheilos to Rabbanim and not posken from books/sefarim, or as Meno put it – A Rav is not a computer; he’s a person who can figure out what this person needs to hear.
December 25, 2016 7:04 am at 7:04 am #1205877WinnieThePoohParticipant“Meno & Bluhbluh +1. That is why we have Rabbanim and we are supposed to ask sheilos to Rabbanim and not posken from books/sefarim..”
..or the CR.
December 25, 2016 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1205878LightbriteParticipantNC: Source, see below. Forgot the pg #, but I think it’s provided in the index.
“Rebbe: The Life and Teachings of Menachem M. Schneerson, the Most Influential Rabbi in Modern History”
By Joseph Telushkin
December 25, 2016 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1205879reuventree555ParticipantDoes this approach bother anyone else? Essentially what we’re saying is that it’s perfectly normal for a Rabbi to say one thing- but when questioned 1 on 1- he might hold differently.
How doesn’t this make him disingenuous at best and a liar at worst?
December 25, 2016 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1205880☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantEssentially what we’re saying is that it’s perfectly normal for a Rabbi to say one thing- but when questioned 1 on 1- he might hold differently.
I think that is a mischaracterization of what is being discussed.
December 25, 2016 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #1205881Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantDY +1.
Reuven, we are not talking about a situation where he writes in his sefer that it is absolutely assur to do something and then he goes and tells someone that l’chatchila you are supposed to do that very thing.
It is also important to remember that in many halacha sefarim, it is written in the introduction that you can’t posken from the sefer.
Halacha is very complex. In order to posken halacha, a person has to know what every Rishon and Achoron said, etc. Obviously, that can’t be given over in a concise halacha sefer for the masses. If someone wants to know halacha well enough to be able to posken for himself, he has to sit and study from real sefarim for many years, not read an english halacha sefer.
The main purposes of an english (or hebrew) halacha sefer are:
1. to give over what most people should be doing in most situations
2. So that people will know what things could be shailahs and they will know when to ask.
December 25, 2016 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1205882LightbriteParticipantLU +123
December 25, 2016 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1205883LightbriteParticipantreuventree555: What DY and LU said.
The rabbi is still being authentic.
Think about a professor who passes out a syllabus on the first day of classes.
It says that:
-There is no leniency on tardiness and u excused absences.
-Five tardies equals one unexcused absence.
-Five unexcused absences is an automatic fail.
Surely there have been some exceptional circumstances where a student broke these rules by coming late to class. However the student still passed the class.
Whether it was arranging something with the teacher before the semester or explaining emergency circumstances, and making up the time and classwork in another way, the professor found a way to accommodate the student’s needs.
The professor also still implemented these rules as stated with the general student body.
… It’s just so weird that I never thought of these books in such a way until now. Maybe that means that I am starting to be more critical of the information and recognize that there are variations that make living Torah a personal relationship with Hashem.
Thank you
December 25, 2016 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1205884Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantLU – +1. I just want to add, that while your mashal is a good one, I hope it is clear that it is much more complicated than that. The difference is that halacha is super-complicated and complex so it is simply impossible to put every opinion and every case-scenario in one sefer. I know that is what you were saying, but I am just pointing out that it is far more complex than class rules. So while it is a good mashal, it does not begin to compare.
December 25, 2016 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1205885LightbriteParticipantLol touche LU.
Yes I wanted to give a real life example but it was too personal.
So then I thought of another and maybe better real life example but the details are so specific that someone could easily figure out the person by Googling. The story wouldn’t make sense if I was vague on the details.
Without anything close to compare, I made up this example which I agree isn’t a strong or accurate mashal.
… On another note, how common is it to find halacha books on how and when to be dishonest? Lying under certain circumstances is a really hard halacha for me.
I don’t want to say specifically why I’m bringing this up now but it’s important. I have mixed feelings about lying. I don’t want to do it. Yet I see how when someone else lies to spare another person’s present feelings, it may give the person hope that one day freedom will come.
In that book about the Chabad Rebbe by Joseph Telushkin, Telushkin talks about how the Rebbe never told his mother that his brother died. For the rest of her life the Rebbe reportedly fabricated letters and even had someone call her long-distance to keep up the story that the brother was still living.
That is such a touchy situation.
Way too specific to advise individuals whose sibling, G-d forbid, passes away, on whether or not to tell one’s mother/father.
December 26, 2016 10:23 am at 10:23 am #1205886Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantThat’s the type of question that really depends on the person, the situation, and the Rav you are asking. Personally, I am very honest and I try to stay far away from dishonesty (emphasis on the word “try” – it’s not as easy as it sounds).
I have a friend who was an older single girl. People kept pressuring her to lie about her age for shidduchim, telling her that it is permissible for the sake of shidduchim. Finally, she asked Rav Sheinberg, zatsal, (he was her Rav) what she should do. He said to her pointblank, “It’s assur to lie.” I think he said it in a tone of voice as though it’s a clear-cut thing, and why was she even thinking of asking.
She was mortified. She hadn’t really wanted to lie in the first place – she only asked because everyone was pressuring her so much.
Rav Sheinberg, zatsal, was known for his honesty. I had my own story with him. Maybe I’ll write about it, but this post is long enough.
December 26, 2016 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1205887LightbriteParticipantOkay here is one example of lying that I learned how to do.
With one person in particular who really bothered me persistently and put me down, saying that he was “just teasing”, I learned to avoid him and respond to his “Where’ve you been?” with “I’ve been busy.” If he asks more I repeat the same thing over again.
He also asks me an invasive question that there is no good answer to. Even saying that I don’t have time to talk gets me into a draining situation. Even writing about it is triggering me so I will stop and close the point here.
My answers feel like lies. Yes I’ve been busy but in his mind me being busy is not the same as my definition. Telling him the truth is a sakana for me. My therapist taught me that “broken record technique” of deflecting energies and people for pikuach nefesh.
I wonder what the rav would say here.
I’ve heard that some rabbonim recommend lying about details like age for shidduchim, like saying someone who is 40 is 39.
Was it midrash where Aaron lied to two people (brothers?) who were fighting, saying that each one told him that they felt remorse and/or wanted to make up with the other one (when in fact neither told him that), and that helped warm each up to go to talk to the other and they made up. It was happily ever after.
December 26, 2016 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1205888Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantLB- most of the lies you are talking about are fine. The only one I’m unsure of is lying about age for shidduchim. There may be different opinions, so you have to ask a sheilah. Personally, I think it’s a bad idea even if someone is told it’s permissible.
The other examples you gave should all be fine. I understand the discomfort part though. I recently told a shadchan that I was “busy” and not available for dating. I meant that I was busy because I had work that had to be finished within approximately 2 weeks from the day of this conversation and I had decided that I wasn’t dating until my work was done.
But I knew that she took my words to mean that I was busy going out with someone else. It made me very uncomfortable, especially when she said something to the effect of wishing me that it should go well or something like that.
It’s a good thing that the conversation took place over the phone or my face would totally have given me away. I’m a very bad liar. But I did feel like it was necessary in this case. And it wasn’t a total lie -both because I was technically busy and also I really did have someone I should have been going out with but had pushed off until I finished my work.
I really don’t think that any of the cases you are talking about are a problem, but I recommend asking a Rav for one simple reason – I think you will feel much better about it if the Rav tells you it’s fine and explains why.
December 26, 2016 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1205889LightbriteParticipant“The only one I’m unsure of is lying about age for shidduchim. There may be different opinions, so you have to ask a sheilah. Personally, I think it’s a bad idea even if someone is told it’s permissible” (LU)
LU: Agreed on the lying about age for myself at least. I wouldn’t feel right about starting off a marriage with a lie (assuming that all went well).
Maybe if the two have a good sense of humor and can laugh about it.
Still I wouldn’t want to lie and don’t know if I would want to continue seeing someone who lied to me about his age.
Here’s a related thread:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/shidduchim-why-is-everybody-lying-and-is-it-ok
December 26, 2016 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1205890LightbriteParticipantFrom *Shiddchim and Shadchanus – Yismach*
“Hilchos Shidduchim”
“According to R’ Elyashic zt”l one is allowed to slightly lie about their age. However, according to R’ Shlomo Zalman Orbach zt”l one is absolutely forbidden to lie about their age, even to a slight degree. Only in very specific cases does one attain a heter to lie about their age.* This heter requires a specific psak.
*Simcha Leish 1:8 see mokoros”
Citation:
Yismach
December 26, 2016 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1205891Neville ChaimBerlinParticipantLightbrite: Where have you been?
December 26, 2016 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #1205892Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantLB – if you are thinking of lying for shidduchim, you must ask first and not rely on Yismach’s quote from R’ Elyashiv zts”l. First of all, there are other opinions as you can see.
Second of all, there may be conditions attached.
Third of all, you have to know what “lying slightly” means. Maybe it means if a shadchan sees an old copy of a resume of yours that says that you are 2 years younger, and you don’t correct her.
Something else to think about – personally, I don’t think I would go out with someone who lied about his age even if he was told it’s permissible. It is very important to me that the guy be honest and straightforward and that our relationship be based on honesty. So there may be others who don’t think it’s the best way to start a relationship and would not want to marry you if they found out that you lied. And even if they do, it could undermine their ability to trust you in the future. (I am talking about outright lies now, and not about evading the truth or letting someone think you are younger than you are and not correcting them before a first or second date).
December 27, 2016 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1205894WinnieThePoohParticipantOne should realize that one does not pasken halacha (for example whether it is ok to lie) based on a story about a gadol’s behavior (for example, Rebbe lied to his mother that his brother was alive). every individual situation would require asking a shaila from a rav.
speaking of lying about one’s age for shidduchim, a friend was once told that since “everyone” assumes that people lie about their age, they will automatically add a few years to whatever age they are told, assuming that will be more accurate. So if you really are 29, and say 29, they will assume you are really 32. So it would not be lying to say you are 27, since then they will get the age right! A bit of a joke, of course.
December 27, 2016 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1205895Lilmod UlelamaidParticipantWTP – same thing happened to my friend! Maybe we share a friend.
In my case, it was her brother who lied about her age and she was upset about it. He was serious when he said that about people assuming you are lying.
December 27, 2016 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1205896LightbriteParticipantNeville ChaimBerlin: Busy 😉
December 27, 2016 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #1205897WinnieThePoohParticipantLU, different friend- mine doesn’t have any brothers. But probably a common enough conclusion.
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