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this is in honor of me wanting to grow.
lilmod ulelmaid – as a halacha teacher maybe you want to start by sharing something about halacha. i started another thread called “tznius” so lets keep the tznius at its own thread since its such a broad subject. you pick something else and start.
“it is a Halacha not to eat fish & meat together”
being in the catering business for many years i am fortunate to have a mashgiach working for me that takes his job very serious in which when working at Shabbos Simchas that on Friday nights the fish can stay on the table until the main course versus Shabbos day EVERY SINGLE piece of fish must be off the table before the next course of Liver-being meat-is served. even though there may be many empty seats still or people who have not arrived yet.
most people today will sadly break this halacha & you will see fish & meat together on the table. this is not a minhag but a halacha in shulchan aruch.
hope you take a drink between. they say a person is supposed to always take a drink between courses even when not first fish & then meat.
What was the tznius thread? I missed that.
Sparkly: Why can’t you eat your hamburger first, drink something and then eat the sushi?
they say
Who is “they?”
The Wolf
Seforim and previous tzaddikim from earlier generations
MA: Do you look things up (or even learn them at all) before you claim that something is “a Halacha in Shulchan Aruch”? Fish and meat is not a Halacha, it is something that is Assur Mishum Sakanah. That has several Nafka Minos. And it is very, very, very clear (I cannot stress how clear it is) from the Shulchan Aruch and the Poskim that it is only Assur when they are cooked together. There is nothing wrong with having them on the same table.
“There is nothing wrong with having them on the same table.”
What about on the same plate?
sam
can you please let me & everyone else know where we can find this in shulchan aruch or any sefer for that matter?
Thank you appreciate it.
being in the business & learning these halachos including serious kashering Pesach hotels for many years. i was required to know it well before getting deep into this job. its a full time job not just a side job.
i.e. to add. from all the Pesach hotels dealt with do you know how many mashgichim think its a joke & i see them sitting on a chair doing nothing? of course they don’t mean to steal but to just sit & not keep your eyes open with walking around is insane. a pesach kitchen which is either a mile long or 2 large separate for meat & dairy with about 20-30 workers is impossible to see completely from sitting on a chair
“…this is not a minhag but a halacha in shulchan aruch…”
-Mashiach Agent
“Do you look things up (or even learn them at all) before you claim that something is “a Halacha in Shulchan Aruch”? Fish and meat is not a Halacha, it is something that is Assur Mishum Sakanah. That has several Nafka Minos. And it is very, very, very clear (I cannot stress how clear it is) from the Shulchan Aruch and the Poskim that it is only Assur when they are cooked together”
-Sam2
“can you please let me & everyone else know where we can find this in shulchan aruch or any sefer for that matter?”
-Mashiach Agent
I’m confused, are there two users name Mashiach Agent?
There are numerous articles regarding the sakana of cooking/eating fish and meat together. Google “eating fish and meat together”.
Can they be on the same table together? There is a machlokes whether two individuals, one eating fish and one eating meat, if they need a “heker” between them. From the KOF-K:
meno
sam claims that it is very clear…. read his post
he seems like an expert to me in this halacha. in that case he should know right away exactly where in shulchan aruch its written so we can all look it up
“…this is not a minhag but a halacha in shulchan aruch…”
-Mashiach Agent
thank you Iacisrmma
now that we all know where to look it up anyone can see the halacha for themselves. i can tell you as a mashgiach myself we are all required to take this matter very serious & make sure that no fish is left on the table before any meat is served.
MA. Where in kuf tes zayin is the issue of fish and meat on the same table (with some eating fish and others meat) raised as an issue, with or without a heker?
He must have meant Kuf Ayin Gimmel (173:2). There the Mechanber says, “Between meat and fish, it’s an obligation to wash because it is difficult for something else, and by danger we are even more strict than Issur.”
The Mishna Brura(3) says that “difficult for something else” means eating fish and meat together causes leprosy. However he says to see the Magen Avraham who says that it is possible that nowadays there is no danger. This is because nature has changed.
In other words, it was dangerous at one time, but may not be anymore. Nonetheless, Moshiach Agent has a valid point. The MINHAG amongst everyone I know who keeps Shabbos is not to have fish and meat on the table at the same time. If you want to feel like you are a member of the group of people who keeps Shabbos, then you will need to conduct yourself according to this minhag. If you have an uncontrollable desire to put anchovies on Chicken Ceasar Salad, don’t tell anyone about it except for your local Orthodox Rabbi 🙂
Seforim and previous tzaddikim from earlier generations
Yeah, I knew that’s what you meant. I was actually looking for an actual citation.
Oh, and while you’re at it, have you come up with the citation for your rule that we don’t fast on Asara B’Teves when it falls out on a Friday?
The Wolf
Sparkly, I already gave you a very long answer to that question in another thread. In short, they have to be long enough that your knees NEVER show.
The skirts have to cover the knees lihalacha, but everyone has their minhag as to go longer than that.
Yeshivishe kup: she asked how long they have to be.
6 feet long
Sparkly, I already gave you a very long answer to that question in another thread. In short, they have to be long enough that your knees NEVER show.
What if you are wearing pants or leggings under the skirt?
(I haven’t found a satisfactory answer yet, maybe someone here has one).
Another tznius halacha
Dressing too trendy or modern is also not tznius though the skirt or sleeves might cover the knees and elbows
Making an overly fancy wedding is not Tznius
Sparkly – Perhaps, but not the question being asked. My question is whether it is not “Tznius” to wear a skirt that does not always cover the knee, but have leggings or pants underneath so that the knee and thigh are always covered.
Dressing too trendy or modern is also not tznius
Driving a trendy or modern car like a Lexus is similarly not Tznius.
GAW- stockings and tights are for sure assur. This is brought down by Poskim.
I personally have always thought that pants were okay, but I never actually asked a sheilah, so it’s possible that I am wrong. My assumption (which may or may not be correct) was partially based on the fact that there were opinions at one time that it is muttar for girls to wear loose pants. L’maaseh, these opinions have not been accepted, and therefore it is assur today for girls to wear pants. But since loose pants may not be “technically assur”, I wouldn’t think it’s a problem for someone’s skirt to be above their knees if they are wearing pants.
I wouldn’t advise walking around with pants and a knee-length skirt, because when I see girls walking around like that, I think that it looks inappropriate – as though they are really wearing pants but stuck a skirt over it- and I think that some of these girls do end up removing the skirt eventually. However, I would think that if someone is going on a tiyul or bike riding or horseback riding, etc, and she is wearing pants under her skirt, it is okay if her skirts goes above her knees. But again, that is my own assumption, so I may be wrong.
Leggings are in-between, so I don’t know. I would think that they are similar to tights, but less problematic. Since Frum girls don’t wear leggings w/o a skirt, I can’t really see why this is any different.
“Dressing too trendy or modern is also not tznius
Driving a trendy or modern car like a Lexus is similarly not Tznius.”
You mean I will have to stop driving my Lexus! 🙁
However, I would think that if someone is going on a tiyul or bike riding or horseback riding, etc, and she is wearing pants under her skirt, it is okay if her skirts goes above her knees. But again, that is my own assumption, so I may be wrong.
I’m looking for a source one way or the other. Also, if it is OK for a Tiyul, it is probably acceptable for the street as well (as far as the Halacha is concerned).
Thanks
You mean I will have to stop driving my Lexus! 🙁
“Trendy and Modern” is showing off and getting people to look at you. Although not under classical “Tznius”, it certainly comes under “Hayznaya Leches”. A fancy/showy car is the same idea.
“Trendy and Modern” is showing off and getting people to look at you. Although not under classical “Tznius”, it certainly comes under “Hayznaya Leches”. A fancy/showy car is the same idea.”
I was joking! I actually have no clue what a Lexus is! I wouldn’t know a Lexus from a …(I don’t even know what to fill in the blank with because I know nothing about cars!)
LU I guess in 5 minutes someone would have told you it wasn’t tsnius for a woman to drive a car at all.
Person1 – lol. In my neighborhood, that’s probably true. I doubt there are very many women in my neighborhood who drive.
I can’t afford a car anyhow, but Boruch Hashem, I live in EY, so I don’t need one!
“LU I guess in 5 minutes someone would have told you it wasn’t tsnius for a woman to drive a car at all.”
In my neighborhood, the women wear burkas (while a few of them anyhow).
Back to the meat and fish. Where is there a source, anywhere, that one should not have fish and meat on the table at the same time. Please do not discuss, eating, cooking or eating one right after the other.
The Shulchan Aruch does not discuss the length of women’s skirts. Nor does the Shulchan Aruch bring down the halacha of “shok b’isha erva.” Rather the Bais Yosef (Orach Chaim 75) holds that shok is just an example of a body part that is normally covered. The Shulchan Aruch (and the Rambam and others) hold that any body part that is normally covered but is now uncovered is a problem of erva and other people cannot daven in front of it. So according to the Shulchan Aruch (others disagree) whether or not legs are erva depends on the norms in the community in which you are located. See also, Aruch Hashulchan 75.
Now, there is a separate halacha of tznius norms called Daas Yehudis. This is the tznius practices of b’nos Yisroel. The Mishna in Kesubos lists a couple of such practices but does not include covering legs. Therefore, whether and how much legs NEED (obviously a person can choose a higher personal standard of tznius) to be covered (and the corresponding skirt length) for tznius reasons depends on the norms of Jewish community in which you live.
RE: horseback riding. What ever happened to women’s riding skirts? They were actually pants with very full pleated legs so when a woman was standing it looked like she was wearing a full, mid-calf length skirt but since they were actually trousers it allowed her to ride astride. Actually, in some circles it was considered immodest for a woman to ride astride even in a modest riding skirt. A woman’s side saddle allowed a woman to ride while dressed in modest feminine attire.
Sparkly, I said that leggings are more tznius than tights, but I don’t know if they are muttar either (even if they are less of a problem than tights.) After all, it is assur to wear leggings w/o a skirt over them, so why should this be okay?
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