Hand Matzos vs Machine Matzos

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  • #1486676
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    See the Sadei Chemed on Chametz and Matzah. He brings a story from the Divrei Chaim from Tzanz (Rav Chaim Halberstam) who received testimony that they don’t clean out the machines properly. Hearing this he prohibited all machine matzos declaring it chametz gamur. They actually say that besides this there was a hidden reason that automation takes away the jobs from the poor.
    The Ksav Sofer established certain guidelines of how to clean out the machines.

    #1486842
    Joseph
    Participant

    Wouldn’t that takana only apply to the time when they didn’t clean the machines properly?

    #1486916
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Also, taking away the job from the poor still applies.

    #1486911
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The one’s who follow the Divrei Chaim do not eat machine matzos.

    #1486958
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The question is if we can perform the mitzva of matzos the first day? The Daas Sofer (Rabbi Akiva Sofer) brings a prove from the Nemukai Yosef in Baba Kama, where the lighting of shabbos candles emanates from the lighting of erev shabbos. Similarly, since the machine has no mind of its own, it makes matzos on the basis of the mind of the Jew who originally presses the electric button לשם מצות מצות.

    #2046866
    Johnny Picklesauce
    Participant

    Machine matzos are assur to eat on pesach bichlal

    #2068481
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Joynny, I appreciate your outright comment indicating your ignorance by making all who eat machine matzos considered eating chametz on Pesach.

    #2068629
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, rav belsky said that the divrei chaim’s main concern was taking away the parnosa of almanos and the poor. Rav shlomo kluger and others at the time allowed it – rav belsky also said that oberlander rabbonim like rav yonasan shteif ate machine matzos, and he said over a story about a choshuve yerushalmi yid who spent yom tov in a chasidishe town in poland. He had brought with him his machine matzos that were the norm in yerushalayim, but everywhere he went they wouldn’t let him into their homes…one family that was especially tolerant let him sit and eat them in a corner far away from their table.

    I personally eat machine matzos that are shmurah and from a bakery in yerushalayim that has a sh’eris yisroel hashgocha, but not for the sedorim because of the shitos that hold that it might not be lishma.

    #2068635
    Lostspark
    Participant

    “Joynny, I appreciate your outright comment indicating your ignorance by making all who eat machine matzos considered eating chametz on Pesach”

    I eat hand made matzo all of pesach, along with no gebrokts so I guess I’m ignorant as well.

    #2068716
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Avira, I do the same.

    #2068721
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I have to point out that the Wiener stopped baking machine matzos because of an accident that happened.

    #2068730
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant
    #2068759

    lostspark > so I guess I’m ignorant as well.

    I think objection is not to you eating handmade matzah, but to considering those who do not wrong.

    The question of requiring being meikel on matza may be only for people who live off charity, they may need to ask the sponsors whether they approve the etra expense. I wonder what is halakha id the sponsor thinks that handmade matza is a luxury, while the recipient think it is halakha? Especially if Issahar considers himself more learned and frum than Zevulun. Can he lie l tzoreh mitzva? can he redirect funds from buying clothes, and walk in old ones, and buy matza instead?

    #2068755

    Avira > taking away the parnosa of almanos

    Thans, I never heard this. In our days, you may be better off feeding a poor family directly for a week for the cost shmura matza. In the last several years, I saw handmade matza made in Ukraine. It might be available this year also, as it was probably baked well in advance, so this might fir the rationale you are quoting.

    #2068798
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    AAQ’s observation makes the most sense. While it may happen in rare cases, I very much doubt R’ Belsky’s assertion that the large percentage of hand-mad shmurah matzos are baked by widows and the poor. And in those rare cases where that might be the case, it would make more sense to provide direct tzadakah that one knows will go directly to those in need rather than assuming it will trickle down to them by purchasing such shmurah from the owners of the market or bakery and relying upon their paying good wages to the widows and poor they’ve hired.
    As to cleaning the machines, if the bakery has a good hashgacha that your rely upon year- around and for pesach otherwise, than there is no reason not to rely upon the rav hamachshir to supervise the cleaning. Ultimately, it depends on your hashkafah and budget. If you can afford it, go with hand-shmruah for ganz yom tov; if your are like many of us, save the hand-shmurah for the sedorim and use machine shmurah for the rest of pesach.

    #2068810
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    I prefer the machine matzos because I don’t like to always have to check the hand matzos for possible shailos; kipulim etc. Machine matzos come out close to perfect, and are usually shlaimim (for shabbos and last days lf YT) – doesn’t hurt that they’re about 30-40% cheaper than hand matzos.

    Gadol; rav belsky was talking about the situation in the time and place of the divrei chaim – not currently.

    #2068811
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Reb E, thanks for sharing what Vien does – I assumed they (and most other heimishe) changed to hand matzos because of generally becoming more chasidish – are there still entire kehilos from oberland that eat machine, or is it individuals?

    #2068820
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    What about Debretziner?

    #2068837
    ujm
    Participant

    Until not that long ago, relatively speaking, all matzos were hand matzos, as there were no machines. It’s absurd to say hand matzos are worse than machine. Did 2500+ years of ancestors use a less than optimal matzah?

    #2068877
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Ujm, our tefilin, daled minim, and tzitzis are unquestionably of higher quality than what we had hundreds of years ago – it’s not being motzi laaz on previous generations, but if we have the efsharus of making matzos without the many shailos that (at least our) hand matzos invariably have, then ma tov uma naim

    #2068896

    Gadol, I presume that at the time of the psak, selling of matza was much closer to the women who were baking them – and maybe even cheaper and better than the early machine matzah. And it is better to give someone a job thn tzedokah. I do not know what percentage of current matza price goes to poor women in Yerushalaim or Lemberg. If it is high somewhere, I would advocate buying from there. Anybody knows? Any company volunteering this information?

    #2068897

    ujm > It’s absurd to say hand matzos are worse than machine

    I presume you are learnign from hand-written chumashim and wear hand-made shoes… I admit my suit from London Savile Row lasted longer than the American machine-made, but mayhbe it was I did not feel like eating cholent in that pricey piece of fabric.

    #2068910
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Was there ever an inyan about the higher level of kavanah among the guys doing each step of the hand-made shmurah versus the guy pushing the buttons on the machine-made stuff??

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