Hand Matzos vs Machine Matzos
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Tagged: Rav Soloveitchick
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March 12, 2018 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1486676Reb EliezerParticipant
See the Sadei Chemed on Chametz and Matzah. He brings a story from the Divrei Chaim from Tzanz (Rav Chaim Halberstam) who received testimony that they don’t clean out the machines properly. Hearing this he prohibited all machine matzos declaring it chametz gamur. They actually say that besides this there was a hidden reason that automation takes away the jobs from the poor.
The Ksav Sofer established certain guidelines of how to clean out the machines.March 12, 2018 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1486842JosephParticipantWouldn’t that takana only apply to the time when they didn’t clean the machines properly?
March 12, 2018 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1486916Reb EliezerParticipantAlso, taking away the job from the poor still applies.
March 12, 2018 11:39 am at 11:39 am #1486911Reb EliezerParticipantThe one’s who follow the Divrei Chaim do not eat machine matzos.
March 12, 2018 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1486958Reb EliezerParticipantThe question is if we can perform the mitzva of matzos the first day? The Daas Sofer (Rabbi Akiva Sofer) brings a prove from the Nemukai Yosef in Baba Kama, where the lighting of shabbos candles emanates from the lighting of erev shabbos. Similarly, since the machine has no mind of its own, it makes matzos on the basis of the mind of the Jew who originally presses the electric button לשם מצות מצות.
December 31, 2021 8:05 am at 8:05 am #2046866Johnny PicklesauceParticipantMachine matzos are assur to eat on pesach bichlal
March 11, 2022 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #2068481Reb EliezerParticipantJoynny, I appreciate your outright comment indicating your ignorance by making all who eat machine matzos considered eating chametz on Pesach.
March 13, 2022 12:25 am at 12:25 am #2068629AviraDeArahParticipantReb E, rav belsky said that the divrei chaim’s main concern was taking away the parnosa of almanos and the poor. Rav shlomo kluger and others at the time allowed it – rav belsky also said that oberlander rabbonim like rav yonasan shteif ate machine matzos, and he said over a story about a choshuve yerushalmi yid who spent yom tov in a chasidishe town in poland. He had brought with him his machine matzos that were the norm in yerushalayim, but everywhere he went they wouldn’t let him into their homes…one family that was especially tolerant let him sit and eat them in a corner far away from their table.
I personally eat machine matzos that are shmurah and from a bakery in yerushalayim that has a sh’eris yisroel hashgocha, but not for the sedorim because of the shitos that hold that it might not be lishma.
March 13, 2022 3:33 am at 3:33 am #2068635LostsparkParticipant“Joynny, I appreciate your outright comment indicating your ignorance by making all who eat machine matzos considered eating chametz on Pesach”
I eat hand made matzo all of pesach, along with no gebrokts so I guess I’m ignorant as well.
March 13, 2022 10:08 am at 10:08 am #2068716Reb EliezerParticipantAvira, I do the same.
March 13, 2022 10:08 am at 10:08 am #2068721Reb EliezerParticipantI have to point out that the Wiener stopped baking machine matzos because of an accident that happened.
March 13, 2022 10:18 am at 10:18 am #2068730Reb EliezerParticipantFor eating gebrokts see my discussion at https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/eating-gebroks-on-pesach.
March 13, 2022 10:58 am at 10:58 am #2068759Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantlostspark > so I guess I’m ignorant as well.
I think objection is not to you eating handmade matzah, but to considering those who do not wrong.
The question of requiring being meikel on matza may be only for people who live off charity, they may need to ask the sponsors whether they approve the etra expense. I wonder what is halakha id the sponsor thinks that handmade matza is a luxury, while the recipient think it is halakha? Especially if Issahar considers himself more learned and frum than Zevulun. Can he lie l tzoreh mitzva? can he redirect funds from buying clothes, and walk in old ones, and buy matza instead?
March 13, 2022 10:59 am at 10:59 am #2068755Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantAvira > taking away the parnosa of almanos
Thans, I never heard this. In our days, you may be better off feeding a poor family directly for a week for the cost shmura matza. In the last several years, I saw handmade matza made in Ukraine. It might be available this year also, as it was probably baked well in advance, so this might fir the rationale you are quoting.
March 13, 2022 11:39 am at 11:39 am #2068798GadolhadorahParticipantAAQ’s observation makes the most sense. While it may happen in rare cases, I very much doubt R’ Belsky’s assertion that the large percentage of hand-mad shmurah matzos are baked by widows and the poor. And in those rare cases where that might be the case, it would make more sense to provide direct tzadakah that one knows will go directly to those in need rather than assuming it will trickle down to them by purchasing such shmurah from the owners of the market or bakery and relying upon their paying good wages to the widows and poor they’ve hired.
As to cleaning the machines, if the bakery has a good hashgacha that your rely upon year- around and for pesach otherwise, than there is no reason not to rely upon the rav hamachshir to supervise the cleaning. Ultimately, it depends on your hashkafah and budget. If you can afford it, go with hand-shmruah for ganz yom tov; if your are like many of us, save the hand-shmurah for the sedorim and use machine shmurah for the rest of pesach.March 13, 2022 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2068810AviraDeArahParticipantI prefer the machine matzos because I don’t like to always have to check the hand matzos for possible shailos; kipulim etc. Machine matzos come out close to perfect, and are usually shlaimim (for shabbos and last days lf YT) – doesn’t hurt that they’re about 30-40% cheaper than hand matzos.
Gadol; rav belsky was talking about the situation in the time and place of the divrei chaim – not currently.
March 13, 2022 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2068811AviraDeArahParticipantReb E, thanks for sharing what Vien does – I assumed they (and most other heimishe) changed to hand matzos because of generally becoming more chasidish – are there still entire kehilos from oberland that eat machine, or is it individuals?
March 13, 2022 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2068820Reb EliezerParticipantWhat about Debretziner?
March 13, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2068837ujmParticipantUntil not that long ago, relatively speaking, all matzos were hand matzos, as there were no machines. It’s absurd to say hand matzos are worse than machine. Did 2500+ years of ancestors use a less than optimal matzah?
March 13, 2022 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #2068877AviraDeArahParticipantUjm, our tefilin, daled minim, and tzitzis are unquestionably of higher quality than what we had hundreds of years ago – it’s not being motzi laaz on previous generations, but if we have the efsharus of making matzos without the many shailos that (at least our) hand matzos invariably have, then ma tov uma naim
March 13, 2022 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2068896Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantGadol, I presume that at the time of the psak, selling of matza was much closer to the women who were baking them – and maybe even cheaper and better than the early machine matzah. And it is better to give someone a job thn tzedokah. I do not know what percentage of current matza price goes to poor women in Yerushalaim or Lemberg. If it is high somewhere, I would advocate buying from there. Anybody knows? Any company volunteering this information?
March 13, 2022 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #2068897Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantujm > It’s absurd to say hand matzos are worse than machine
I presume you are learnign from hand-written chumashim and wear hand-made shoes… I admit my suit from London Savile Row lasted longer than the American machine-made, but mayhbe it was I did not feel like eating cholent in that pricey piece of fabric.
March 13, 2022 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #2068910GadolhadorahParticipantWas there ever an inyan about the higher level of kavanah among the guys doing each step of the hand-made shmurah versus the guy pushing the buttons on the machine-made stuff??
March 21, 2023 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #2175441Reb EliezerParticipantbump
March 21, 2023 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2175519midwesternerParticipantShatzer bakery closed down this year because they can’t find workers. So I don’t think it’s taking any parnassa away from anyone who actually wants it.
March 21, 2023 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #2175561ujmParticipantMidwest: Where did you hear that’s the reason they closed?
March 22, 2023 1:42 am at 1:42 am #2175685SQUARE_ROOTParticipant“Rav Soloveitchick actually preferred the use of machine-baked matzot-shemurot to the traditional hand-baked version.
The risk of hand-baked matzot becoming chametz has not changed fundamentally in the past 3,000 years.
However, technological progress has resulted in a baking process that leaves almost no possibility of machine-made matzot becoming chametz.”
SOURCE: Rabbi Aharon Ziegler, The Jewish Press, 2009 March 27, page 31.
March 22, 2023 8:28 am at 8:28 am #2175744DaMosheParticipantMidwest, I heard a different reason for Shatzer closing.
March 22, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2175771GadolhadorahParticipantA generation of kids in BP did trips to Shatzer’s before Pesach to see the world’s finest shmurah being made
March 22, 2023 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2175777midwesternerParticipantI heard it directly from one of her (former) major customers. She told him that there were several factors. But the difficulty in finding people, even at 65.00 per hour, made it not worth it to fight through all the struggles.
March 22, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2175910AviraDeArahParticipantGadol – it was indeed an experience; i visited shatzer a few times, once joining a chaburah there.
March 23, 2023 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2176167Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantMatza making is probably the most effective (dollar per lb ) way for Ukraine to send out their wheat this year. Someone should market that.
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