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See the Sadei Chemed on Chametz and Matzah. He brings a story from the Divrei Chaim from Tzanz (Rav Chaim Halberstam) who received testimony that they don’t clean out the machines properly. Hearing this he prohibited all machine matzos declaring it chametz gamur. They actually say that besides this there was a hidden reason that automation takes away the jobs from the poor.
The Ksav Sofer established certain guidelines of how to clean out the machines.Wouldn’t that takana only apply to the time when they didn’t clean the machines properly?
Machine matzos are assur to eat on pesach bichlal
Reb E, rav belsky said that the divrei chaim’s main concern was taking away the parnosa of almanos and the poor. Rav shlomo kluger and others at the time allowed it – rav belsky also said that oberlander rabbonim like rav yonasan shteif ate machine matzos, and he said over a story about a choshuve yerushalmi yid who spent yom tov in a chasidishe town in poland. He had brought with him his machine matzos that were the norm in yerushalayim, but everywhere he went they wouldn’t let him into their homes…one family that was especially tolerant let him sit and eat them in a corner far away from their table.
I personally eat machine matzos that are shmurah and from a bakery in yerushalayim that has a sh’eris yisroel hashgocha, but not for the sedorim because of the shitos that hold that it might not be lishma.
“Joynny, I appreciate your outright comment indicating your ignorance by making all who eat machine matzos considered eating chametz on Pesach”
I eat hand made matzo all of pesach, along with no gebrokts so I guess I’m ignorant as well.
lostspark > so I guess I’m ignorant as well.
I think objection is not to you eating handmade matzah, but to considering those who do not wrong.
The question of requiring being meikel on matza may be only for people who live off charity, they may need to ask the sponsors whether they approve the etra expense. I wonder what is halakha id the sponsor thinks that handmade matza is a luxury, while the recipient think it is halakha? Especially if Issahar considers himself more learned and frum than Zevulun. Can he lie l tzoreh mitzva? can he redirect funds from buying clothes, and walk in old ones, and buy matza instead?
Avira > taking away the parnosa of almanos
Thans, I never heard this. In our days, you may be better off feeding a poor family directly for a week for the cost shmura matza. In the last several years, I saw handmade matza made in Ukraine. It might be available this year also, as it was probably baked well in advance, so this might fir the rationale you are quoting.
AAQ’s observation makes the most sense. While it may happen in rare cases, I very much doubt R’ Belsky’s assertion that the large percentage of hand-mad shmurah matzos are baked by widows and the poor. And in those rare cases where that might be the case, it would make more sense to provide direct tzadakah that one knows will go directly to those in need rather than assuming it will trickle down to them by purchasing such shmurah from the owners of the market or bakery and relying upon their paying good wages to the widows and poor they’ve hired.
As to cleaning the machines, if the bakery has a good hashgacha that your rely upon year- around and for pesach otherwise, than there is no reason not to rely upon the rav hamachshir to supervise the cleaning. Ultimately, it depends on your hashkafah and budget. If you can afford it, go with hand-shmruah for ganz yom tov; if your are like many of us, save the hand-shmurah for the sedorim and use machine shmurah for the rest of pesach.I prefer the machine matzos because I don’t like to always have to check the hand matzos for possible shailos; kipulim etc. Machine matzos come out close to perfect, and are usually shlaimim (for shabbos and last days lf YT) – doesn’t hurt that they’re about 30-40% cheaper than hand matzos.
Gadol; rav belsky was talking about the situation in the time and place of the divrei chaim – not currently.
Reb E, thanks for sharing what Vien does – I assumed they (and most other heimishe) changed to hand matzos because of generally becoming more chasidish – are there still entire kehilos from oberland that eat machine, or is it individuals?
Until not that long ago, relatively speaking, all matzos were hand matzos, as there were no machines. It’s absurd to say hand matzos are worse than machine. Did 2500+ years of ancestors use a less than optimal matzah?
Ujm, our tefilin, daled minim, and tzitzis are unquestionably of higher quality than what we had hundreds of years ago – it’s not being motzi laaz on previous generations, but if we have the efsharus of making matzos without the many shailos that (at least our) hand matzos invariably have, then ma tov uma naim
Gadol, I presume that at the time of the psak, selling of matza was much closer to the women who were baking them – and maybe even cheaper and better than the early machine matzah. And it is better to give someone a job thn tzedokah. I do not know what percentage of current matza price goes to poor women in Yerushalaim or Lemberg. If it is high somewhere, I would advocate buying from there. Anybody knows? Any company volunteering this information?
ujm > It’s absurd to say hand matzos are worse than machine
I presume you are learnign from hand-written chumashim and wear hand-made shoes… I admit my suit from London Savile Row lasted longer than the American machine-made, but mayhbe it was I did not feel like eating cholent in that pricey piece of fabric.
Was there ever an inyan about the higher level of kavanah among the guys doing each step of the hand-made shmurah versus the guy pushing the buttons on the machine-made stuff??
Shatzer bakery closed down this year because they can’t find workers. So I don’t think it’s taking any parnassa away from anyone who actually wants it.
Midwest: Where did you hear that’s the reason they closed?
“Rav Soloveitchick actually preferred the use of machine-baked matzot-shemurot to the traditional hand-baked version.
The risk of hand-baked matzot becoming chametz has not changed fundamentally in the past 3,000 years.
However, technological progress has resulted in a baking process that leaves almost no possibility of machine-made matzot becoming chametz.”
SOURCE: Rabbi Aharon Ziegler, The Jewish Press, 2009 March 27, page 31.
Midwest, I heard a different reason for Shatzer closing.
A generation of kids in BP did trips to Shatzer’s before Pesach to see the world’s finest shmurah being made
I heard it directly from one of her (former) major customers. She told him that there were several factors. But the difficulty in finding people, even at 65.00 per hour, made it not worth it to fight through all the struggles.
Gadol – it was indeed an experience; i visited shatzer a few times, once joining a chaburah there.
Matza making is probably the most effective (dollar per lb ) way for Ukraine to send out their wheat this year. Someone should market that.
AVD: Aside from the unique “ruach” of the place during the busiest days before yom tov, their hand shmurah were absolute perfection00 round, crunchy, slightly charred from the brick oven it was baked in). At least in in the ‘ole days” (I haven’t been back in years), Shatzer generally had one of the lowest rates of broken matzos per box compared with any other bakery. They also had an incredible way of packing their matzohs so they survived a flight back home.
I know that Shatzer was around fr a long time but I questioned why they never got a normal reliable hechsher. Is it just because they felt they did not need it bec. people would buy from them anyway?
Was their hechsher any worse than OU?
UJM- of course. OU is very straight about what they are maikil on and what they are machmir on. The are excellent at upholding the standards they have set. If you don’t like their standards go someone else at your own risk.
The hechsher for Shatzer were the same people who produced a smear campaign against another reputable hechsher for very unscrupulous reasons. About 20 years ago there was a meat-producing plant that did not give in to the strongarm tactics of this hechsher (call it hechsher A) so the plant dropped them. The other reputable hechsher (call it hechsher B) continued giving their hechsher and did not agree with the blackmail tactics. So Hechsher A ran a marketing campaign against hechsher B and said mozi shem ra against The Rav Hamchshir who is a major Tamid Chacham and posek.
I don’t see how anyone can trust a hechsher that uses blackmail and mozi shem ra as their modus operndi.
Alot of people (me included) eat only hand matzos because that is our mesoirah and minhag. Pesach has that special flavor of eating only what your parents did even if it has no ryme or reason. Like alot of Hungarian descent yidden who eat only “falsche fish” aka chicken balls and not real fish because in the shtetle they put something soaked in chometz in the dead fish mouth to keep it fresh.
Some only use 3 to 4 spices…the one the Bubbes had in Europe.
Some only eat 3 or 4 types of vegetables and peel their grapes before eating it.
Or not “mishing” even by someone who you would trust 100% the whole year.
The list goes on and on……Its just the flavor of Pesach alot of us grew up on. Without that it just wouldn”t be Pesach.
Who besides me misses the walnut crackers?Rocky, I just looked up which hechsher they used. It happens to that is one of the most reliable, well established, trustworthy and oldest hechsherim around that is virtually universally accepted.
I know nothing of the dispute you’re referring to, but despite the position on that dispute that you’ve taken and enumerated, even assuming you have the basics correct, it can be well assumed that the hechsher had legs for their statement and/or had a legitimate reason to believe what they stated — even if their might have been another legitimate side to the dispute.
American yeshivish, your great grandparents also didn’t have dairy ( no refrigeration) and used an outhouse.
My rebbe Rav Belsky said that even Pesach minhagim which are tied to the metzius of pre war Europe, like some of those mentioned above, should be kept, as they are minhag yisroel Torah.
My mesorah going back to my ancestors in Chelm gubernia is to never eat machine matzos or drive a car or browse internet. I deliver all my posts to YWN headquarters using Pony Express.
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