May 25, 2010 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #591698
how can they do that? going up to there is an issur of massive proportions, and they’re planning on leading more and more people up there?! isn’t there something about choteh u’machati es harabim…May 25, 2010 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #686208WolfishMusingsParticipant
going up to there is an issur of massive porportions
Without getting into arguments about whose rav is bigger than the other guy’s rav, there *are* opinions that *certain portions* of the Har HaBayis *are* permitted provided that they are not tamei from tumos other than tumas meis. Obviously there are also dissenting opinions.
The WolfMay 25, 2010 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #686209
Emoticon, there are rabbonim who permit ascending the temple mount. When I was in high school, I had a Rabbi as a teacher who held that the fact we control Har Habayis, we should 100% be bringing karbanos.
I know some people who have had the pleasure of going on Har Habayis. The spoke about what an amazing, spiritual journey it was. They went to the mikvah before hand and prayed really well.
Perhaps this is the start of Moshiach. Showing Hashem we WANT it.May 25, 2010 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #686210d aMember
emoticon613, why don’t you tell everyone what you are talking about?
Taken from the main YWN page
VIDEO & PHOTOS: Chareidi Jews Defy Gedolei Yisroel & Ascend Har HaBayis
(Tuesday, May 25th, 2010)
A group of Chareidi Jews ascended the Har Habayis today, with one man fully prostrating himself in prayer (as can be seen in the attached photos).
According to reports, the group was led by Rabbi Yitzchak Brand of the city of Emanuel and Rabbi Yisrael Ariel of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem. The group say they intend to bring ever-larger groups of Jews to the Mount with the purpose of eventually holding a Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice) there.
It must be noted that according to the Poskei Hador one is absolutely forbidden to visit the Temple Mount.
This past Sukkos, Israeli President Shimon Peres paid a visit to the Sukkah of Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv Shlita, where Rav Elyashiv called on the President to prevent Jews from visiting Har HaBayis, stating it is an act that that is viewed as extremely provocative by the goyim. Maran stated everything possible must be done to avoid a religious war, and the provocateurs are playing with fire.
Maran is quoted as explaining to the president that Halacha forbids going onto Har HaBayis but today, it is more than this, it is an act that may lead to a religious war and bloodshed.
In the summer of 2008, Rabbi Moshe Tendler visited Har HaBayis and caused a firestorm amongst Gedolei Eretz Yisroel.
CLICK HERE FOR PHOTOS: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/photos.php?albumid=5475321797258635137May 25, 2010 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #686211d aMember
And here are some of the Comments left on the above story:
1. d a says: May 25, 2010 at 5:39 pm
2. AMCHU says: May 25, 2010 at 5:46 pmMay 26, 2010 12:38 am at 12:38 am #686212dvorakMember
The problem isn’t that it’s totally issur. There is no question that there are parts of Har HaBayis that one can go to even nowadays. However, we are not entirely sure of the boundaries. Dealing with issurei kares, you don’t want to play with those fuzzy boundaries…May 26, 2010 2:00 am at 2:00 am #686213KingcupMember
Can anyone explain why theses men dont need to toivel in “MAYON” mikve that is required for a zov or somtimes even seven days waiting before going to a “MAYON” mikve?May 26, 2010 4:51 am at 4:51 am #686214hereorthereMember
Well, if they are not allowed at all because of questions about where the boundries are, if all the rabbonim agree that because of such concerns, no one may go at all, then it would seem to me that Toiveling in a Mikveh, no matter where, or how properly, would not help.May 26, 2010 5:00 am at 5:00 am #686215
i didn’t say that there aren’t rabbanim that permit it – but you can’t argue with rav elyashiv and rav kanievsky among others. and even though people already said it – i know there are places one is allowed to go, but “fuzzy” was a good way to put it – and i don’t know about you, but if there was a slight chance i was gonna be kareis-ed, i wouldn’t play with it.May 26, 2010 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #686217mt mehdiMember
The people going are following their Daas Torah and we have no right to object.May 26, 2010 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #686218
emoticon613: Why can’t you argue with R’ Elyashiv and R’ Chaim Kanievsky? There are big Rabbonim who say it’s ok to go up.May 26, 2010 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #686219WolfishMusingsParticipant
but you can’t argue with rav elyashiv and rav kanievsky among others.
Right. As I said earlier … “Without getting into arguments about whose rav is bigger than the other guy’s rav…” 🙂
The WolfMay 26, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #686220dvorakMember
emoticon613- that’s exactly my point. I also don’t want to play around with issurei kares. But we can still be melamed zchus knowing that there are parts that are ok and maybe they think they know where they can go and where they can’t. As for you and I, do we have to trust that they got it right (seeing as they’re NOT R’ Elyashiv or R’ Kanievsky etc)? NO! I certainly won’t be taking my chances relying on these people. I just think that before howling our condemnation, we need to be aware that the issue is not as clear cut as it seems.May 26, 2010 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #686221hereorthereMember
Have Rav R’ Elyashiv or R’ Kanievsky said they ‘know’ where the boundaries are?
To put it another way; Have they or would they: Map out a path for people to follow, where they pasken; “If you stay within the path we mapped out, you are fully permitted to go there.”?May 26, 2010 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #686222websterMember
If you read carefully what Rav Elyashav was reported as saying,then the whole debate discussed above of whether or not it’s Halachically permitted to enter Har Ha’Bayis is irrelevant.He clearly sressed that beyond the Halachic issues involved,that it is extremely provocative and liable to cause religous war and bloodshed.The group that ascended Har Ha’Bayis recently acted in a totally irresponsible manner with complete disregard to Jewish lives.It’s quite possible that they have the din of “Rodef” with all the significance of the term.May 26, 2010 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #686223
wolf, these are the poskei hador. i don’t think that anyone can argue with them, i really don’t. it’s not a question of my rav or your rav…unless we involve the sphardim – anyone know what rav amar or rav ovadia yosef say on the subject?
🙂May 27, 2010 12:18 am at 12:18 am #686224
emoticon, read what I posted in the Daas Torah thread. There are no poskim that any other posek is not allowed to argue with. There are Rabbi’s who hold it’s allowed to go up on the Har Habayis.May 27, 2010 2:22 am at 2:22 am #686225yentishParticipant
um, all halacha aside for a minute- is anybody wondering what i’m wondering…..? WHO TOOK THE PICTURES? 🙂 (see YWN photo album)May 28, 2010 11:04 am at 11:04 am #686227
certainly not i!!!! 🙂June 2, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #686228
Theres no excuse to go up to the har habayis. Anyone that does is oiver a lav and is chayiv kares aside from the lav of lo sasuru.June 4, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #686229
mosherose: Are you a posek? I doubt it. Many knowledgeable Rabbonim have said that it’s ok to go up as long as you know where the off-limits areas are. Who are you to argue with them?June 5, 2010 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #686230
let me just ask you a question, feif un! if you had a bowl of cereal on the table, which legitimately may or may not be poisonous – 50/50 – WOULD YOU EAT IT?! no! (i hope not) any place on har habayis (and NO ONE knows FOR SURE – including poskei hador) is a 50/50 percent chance of issur kareis…June 6, 2010 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #686231
emoticon: this isn’t a bowl of cereal that nobody knows for sure. There’s a rule of Torah lo Bashamayim he. If it’s paskened that the areas are ok, then they’re ok! There are big poskim to rely on. There’s no question of right or wrong when in comes to a psak halachah – the psak is, by definition, right!June 7, 2010 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #686232
feif un – i’m asking my rav (who’s hard to get hold of, so sit tight!).June 8, 2010 12:37 am at 12:37 am #686233
“Who are you to argue with them? “
Im not arguing with them. Every single gadol in the world is.June 8, 2010 10:18 am at 10:18 am #686234
Mosherose, clearly not if there is more than one person who says yes. I know of at least 2 rabbonim who say its ok.June 8, 2010 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #686235
may i ask which ones, or wouldn’t i know them?June 10, 2010 12:49 am at 12:49 am #686236
“Mosherose, clearly not if there is more than one person who says yes. I know of at least 2 rabbonim who say its ok. “
If their telling you to be oiver a lav of going on the harhabayis then tehir clearly not gedolim.June 10, 2010 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #686237
mosherose, who are you to make such a judgment? They clearly hold that it’s not a lav. Are you a posek that you can argue with them?June 10, 2010 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #686238
Rabbi Moshe David Tendler
Rabbi Chaim WassermanJune 13, 2010 12:34 am at 12:34 am #686239
sjs – you must be joking.June 13, 2010 2:50 am at 2:50 am #686241
emoticon, why must it be a joke?June 13, 2010 5:07 am at 5:07 am #686242rtParticipant
interestingly, Korach v’chal adaso thought it was proper to be maktir ketores (the aida meant it l’shaim shamayim according to the Shlah haKadosh) and that it was ok to be cholek on the gadol haDoros Moshe Rabbeinu–seems like they were mistaken…June 13, 2010 5:15 am at 5:15 am #686243
sorry, i posted a whole long post that seems to have been edited out (as i thought it may be) so i’m going to have to formulate something that won’t be. but not now. no time.June 15, 2010 12:53 am at 12:53 am #686244
“mosherose, who are you to make such a judgment? They clearly hold that it’s not a lav. Are you a posek that you can argue with them? “
Im not arguing with them, the gedolim who said its assur are. Im just following the gedolim like your supposed too.
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