October 6, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #592545
Did you ever wonder where your thoughts come from? More specifically, ever get a brainstorm or really great idea in business or other areas while not thinking at all about that topic whatsoever? Don’t you find it strange that such a brainstorm just “pops” into your mind at absolute randomness? Its because Hashem at that moment put that idea into your head! Hashem felt that you deserved to have that idea now and not last week or even 2 hours ago. If you become aware of this you will start to see and appreciate the Yad Hashem in your day to day life. Every time you have such a brainstorm, say Thank You Hashem for giving me this thought. You will start to become very aware of Hashems presence in your life if you start doing this.October 6, 2010 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #701650theprof1Participant
also: you have a subconcious spiritual GPS in you. If you’re driving along using a GPS and you make a wrong turn, it reroutes you to the correct route. If in life you take a wrong turn, Hashem has a bas kohl that “reroutes” you to go back.October 6, 2010 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #701651charliehallParticipant
Yup. HaShem is responsible for everything. We just need to open our senses and our minds to the miracles that happen every day of our lives.October 6, 2010 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #701652blinkyParticipant
“also: you have a subconcious spiritual GPS in you. If you’re driving along using a GPS and you make a wrong turn, it reroutes you to the correct route. If in life you take a wrong turn, Hashem has a bas kohl that “reroutes” you to go back.”
nice anology! and when you are doing things right it says “you’ve reached your destination” meaning you are on the right track!October 6, 2010 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #701653
When we hear of, for example, a terrible car accident with it’s consequences, we think OY VAI, so horrible, so terrible, how, why did this happen?
I think most of us have had major yeshuos that we don’t even acknowledge to ourselves. Haven’t we all had “close calls”? Maybe we realize that we went through a stop sign that we didn’t notice until we were half way through it, and B”H we got through Ok with nothing happening. OR… maybe we were just about to pull out of a parking spot and we “just happen to” to give one more quick glance in our mirror before giving it the gas to pull out – and see someone zooming down the block at 60 mph and we jam on the brakes.
When things like this happen, we just usually go “whew, close one” and continue on our merry way. Do we stop and think “Chasdai HaSh-m! I, or someone else, could’ve just been badly injured or even killed! – Thank you HaSh-m for watching over me!”
Want to know where HaSh-m is? HE’s right next to you.October 6, 2010 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #701654
All of what you said is so true. People have questions on Hashem when bad things happen but they forget to appreciate the 100 millions of good things Hashem did for them.October 8, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #701655
It seems that the popular view is that Hashem directly involves himself in all aspects of our lives and that everything is decided through “Hasgacha Protis”.
I do not intend to directly criticize the originator of this post, because again that seems to be the populist take, however the truth is that this view is only one of many among the Rishonim, and certainly not as simplistic as we would like to think.
Im’h let us all be zoicha to siyatta dishmaya in the important nisyonas and decisions in our lives.October 8, 2010 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #701656
This is also the view of the Arizal and the Kabbalists as well as the Baal Shem Tov.October 8, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #701657
That certainly does not negate the many Rishonim who believe otherwise…..October 8, 2010 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #701658
Do you have sources for the “many” Rishonim Id like to see how “many’ and what exactly they say.October 8, 2010 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #701659cofeefanMember
all such beautiful words!!!!
i have a story which really opened my eyes to this fact… they say that on your hebrew birthday Hashem answers your Tefilos so of course on my birthday i davened for a lot of things including a shidduch. the NEXT DAY i get a phone call from a Shadchan telling me she has someone. it ended up not being for me but i hung up the phone and i cried because i felt like Hashem was talking to me saying “don’t worry I didn’t forget….” since then i try very hard to notice the “small” things in life that Hashem helps me with… ie: i drop a lense and i manage to find it… or i manage to get a spot in front of the place i need to go etc!
i think it’s important to realize that Hashem does EVERYTHING for us no matter how small it may seem!October 8, 2010 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #701660yiddishemishpachaMember
What an amazing thread!! Thank you so much. In these very troubling times we so need the chizuk!! Gut Shabbos to everyone!October 12, 2010 3:07 am at 3:07 am #701661
Reb Jay, that’s actually a simplistic understanding of the words of those Rishonim. To borrow a phrase: you have to be acquainted with the whole outlook in order to properly understand.October 12, 2010 3:07 am at 3:07 am #701662
Besides the fact that there’s a difference between the Madreiga of a personal Hashgacha and Hashgacha Pratis as we call it today, which means that it all is Hashem’s plan.
Besides that, the discussion among the Rishonim is about animals.October 12, 2010 3:15 am at 3:15 am #701663
The Gemara says plainly that a person does not hurt his finger unless it was so decided in heaven.October 13, 2010 8:53 am at 8:53 am #701664sm29Participant
when something positive happens, I try to think baruch H-shem
that’s how to enjoy life by focusing on our blessings
Plus, when I have a challenge, I try to trust it’s for the bestOctober 13, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #701665wants to be a WIYMember
A close friend who never buys lottery tickets filled his gas tank at a station in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night.
The attendant was short $1 for change, & pushed a lottery ticket on him He won 250,000. My son’s reaction to this????? ?????
Me too! I was standing at the corner of — &— a busy intersection for 1/2 hour & ????? no one passed that was going my wayOctober 14, 2010 12:59 am at 12:59 am #701666
I believe you would be hard pressed to find a Rishon that holds the popular view of today.
The Ramban in Devarim yud aleph, posuk yud gimmel says quite clearly that only tzaddikim, or in some cases reshaim, have direct hashgochoh protus. There is nothing unclear about the Ramban’s opinion.
The Radak in Nach iterates a similar concept, I believe, many times. Any decent familiarity with the Radak will substantiate this.
The Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim says that a person’s level of hashgochoh protis is directly correlated to his madreigah.
The Ralbag in Milchemes Hashem agrees with the Rambam on this point.October 14, 2010 3:11 am at 3:11 am #701667
“V’ameich kulam tzadikim!”October 14, 2010 8:04 am at 8:04 am #701668
Are you trying to tell me that the Rishonim are arguing on the famous Gemara of Ein Adam Nokef Etzbao Ad Shenigzer Alov Milemaalo?
Like I said, they are not talking about what you are talking about. If you’d look at the Rambam, you would see that as an example of the ‘Hashgacha Pratis’, he references the Gemara about the Amora who would go through his fields and point out exactly which spots needed rain, and it rained exactly in those areas. That is definitely a Hanhaga reserved for Tzaddikim.
The point of Machlokes among the Rishonim is if animals also have Hashgacha or just in the general sense.October 14, 2010 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #701669
You are wrong. The Rishonim that I quoted, in those specific spots, are not referring to animals at all. Please take a look at the Ramban. It is extremely clear.
Additionally, the Rambam says quite clearly that ANY level of Hashgochoh Pratis is dependent on your Madreigah.
If you want to rely on the Kabbalists that is fine. But don’t make the mistake of assuming that this idea is central to Yiddishkeit.October 14, 2010 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #701670
You are ignoring the Gemara that I mentioned, and that is not fine. As I said earlier, the Rambam and the Ramban are talking about being cared for on a personal basis. That is the literal Hashgacha Pratis, personal attention. We are discussing the idea that everything is preplanned. This is mentioned in the Gemara, Geonim, and Rishonim as well.
It is a mistake to confuse the two concepts, no matter how common the mistake.October 14, 2010 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #701671
To “cofeefan” (and others) who said she acknowledges HaSh-m’s hand in something as mundane as finding a parking spot right in front of where you need to go.
I would take that one step further…
Even when you DON’T find a “good” spot, even when you have to circle the block 10 times, and then have to take a spot 2 blocks away from your destination, THAT is ALSO with HaSh-m’s hashgacha. For whatever His reason might be, a reason you will probably never know, He wanted you to circle the block, and He wanted you to walk those two blocks.
So, just as one should say Thank You HaSh-m when you find the close-by spot, one should say it also for the far away spot since in BOTH cases HaSh-m was looking out for your best interests, and only He knows what those best interests are.October 14, 2010 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #701672
HaLeivi’s comment is confused. What is the difference between being cared for on a personal basis, which you admit the Rishonim say only Tzaddikim are Zoiche to, and the posters here who seem to think that when every average yid finds a parking spot that it is Hashgochoh Pratis?
Again, it is fine to rely on the Kabbalists, but know that you are doing so, and know that this type of outlook is not an ikar.
Additionally, even according to the Kabbalists, it is irrational to think that we can understand what is good vs bad. R’ Moshe Feinstein points out in a Teshuvah that the idea that complete bitachon will guarantee you food is wrong. Perhaps Hashem wants you to starve. Perhaps that is the good…..October 14, 2010 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #701673
This type of attitude reminds me of the Shlah’s comment on the way most people daven on Rosh Hashana: ……like dogs barking for food.October 14, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #701674
Jay11691 – NO,- bitachon does not guarantee one food, – it guarantees the knowledge that whether you have food or you DON”T have food, it is HaSh-m in charge of the situation – always, and it is not “b’mikreh” not chance or “luck”.October 14, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #701675cofeefanMember
AinOhdMilvado- you’re very right thank you for pointing that out!!October 14, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #701676
Exactly my point. Well said.October 14, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #701677
“and the posters here who seem to think that when every average yid finds a parking spot that it is Hashgochoh Pratis?
Again, it is fine to rely on the Kabbalists, but know that you are doing so, and know that this type of outlook is not an ikar.”
How then do you explain “u’manhig l’chol ha’beruim”?October 14, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #701678
Good question. The Rishonim explain that there is Hashgochoh Klalus.
Hashem allows nature to take it’s course, with Hashgocho/intervention usually being limited to the overall general Klal/world.
By the way, of course Hashem is the generative force behind all forces of the world, is therefore the ultimate provider of everything, and is the “manhig” behind our world. Poseach es yadechah….October 14, 2010 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #701679
Wow! That’s some lengthly way of saying, “I didn’t understand, please explain.”
Listen closely, I’m talking about a GEMARA. What do you say about that GEMARA. Do the Rishonim you mention argue on the GEMARA? I’m willing to expound somewhat on the difference between the two concepts, but please tell me, how do you learn that GEMARA?
Now, the point is that although Hashem decides everything that happens, not always do we get a private audience and our need/wants catered to, personally. The difference is in the treatment, not in the attention. I mentioned the fact that the Rambam refers to the Gemara about the Amora pointing out where rain is needed. This is a hint to what concept the Rambam is discussing.October 14, 2010 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #701680
Incorrect. The Rambam specifically says that ANY hashgochoh pratis we receive is directly correlated to our madreigah.
I am sure you are not the first person to notice the Gemorah in Chullin 7b; if you feel it contradicts the Rishonim I would encourage you to research any relevant sources that deal with it and report back. I should point out that not every Aggadatah gemorah is considered definitive by the Rishonim. Perhaps that is a place to start. Hatzlochoh.October 15, 2010 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #701681
That is bad news. You just dismiss a Gemara like that? I would much faster dismiss something from the Moreh Nevuchim, like most of Klal Yisroel. The Rambam himself doesn’t use what he wrote there, in the Yad.
Anyhow, the Rambam starts off by bringing alot of Pesukim showing that everything happens for a reason. Then he says that this is only for humans – there is no Gezeira from Hashem specifically on any specific animal or leaf that it should fall or be caught. Then he goes on to say that since the special Hashgacha is due to the Sechel, it follows that the more you got the more Hashgacha you’ll have. For an example, he mentions the special Shmira that the Avos had. Then he mentions that Risho’im lose their Hashgacha, they lose their Shmira, and will certainly get hurt soon enough. What you wrote here, to someone else, is the outlook that the Rambam attributes to Aristotle.
What the Rambam writer about Risho’im is nothing new. It is a Pasuk, Vehelachtem Imi Bakkeri… This is also with Din. It is in fact what Chazal say about Mipi Elyon Lo Tetzei Haraos. Whenever something bad happens, it wasn’t Hashem’s hand punishing, it was Hashem leaving the culprit alone.
If what you say is true, we wouldn’t make a Birchas Hagomel. You would have to thank Chance instead of Goodness.
Another point: The Mekubalim say that even what the Rambam says is a Mikre, is also from Hashem. This too is not necessarily refuting the Rambam’s words. They also would agree that there is no Gezeira on each leaf. Being, though, that Hashem made the world and its weather and all the randomness comes from Him. So the idea is that ever thin that happens is Hashem’s plan. Even, and especially, the Mekubalim agree that there are Mazalos at play. Yet they still say that everything is from Hashem.October 15, 2010 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #701682
I really don’t like pointing this out but on occasion I do. THIS is the coffee room, not Gemara chat 101. I came upon this very lovely and meaningful discussion about hashgacha pratis which was very comforting to me, an avail basically 10 days after my mom’s passing. (you never know who is reading these posts). The thread starts off with real words of bitachon and that in itself is nechama for a person like me in my situation. It pulls me out of my internal depression and reminds me just how good Hashem is to me and of all the story my mom told me and then it goes off into another Gemara debate.
I hate to say this but if all these Gemara kups want to debate how much they know or discuss Torah and learning why are they here? Why not do so in a shiur or with a chavrusa. Personally I don’t think the Coffee Room is the appropriate place for it. Some how it is just out of place. Maybe the moderators can figure out a way that these debates and discussions can move to another area where men who wish to debate in such depth or bring in the mikor of an issue as they did when they were in Yeshiva can do so and others who wish to can join in while allowing those who want to enjoy and contribute to the original concept of the thread can continue to keep the thread in tact. Just a suggestion. I apologize if I sound harsh, maybe it is a little bit of depression escaping.October 15, 2010 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #701683
Love the pun!October 15, 2010 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #701684
You make a valid point, these Gemara discussions tend to hijack threads.October 15, 2010 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #701685
I think you are are right….. This discussion is hijacking the thread….. Hatzlocho Rabah…October 17, 2010 1:10 am at 1:10 am #701686oomisParticipant
Aries, did I miss something? When did you become an avail? I am SO sorry for your loss. I recounted the story of our own personal H”P when my father O”H was niftar 17 years ago (Yartzeit is in a couple of weeks).
Hashem enabled him to drive home from a simcha, having had a massive stroke that left him totally paralyzed, and claimed his life 36 hours later. My mom O”H was in the car with him and did not realize he was ill and unable to talk or move and the casr kept on going. Doctors told us later that it was physiologically impossible for him to have driven the car home owing to the massive and sudden brain bleed, and that my mom must have taken over and did not remember. But that did not happen (she never drove at all, and the design of the car would have made it impossible in any case). There is no question in my mind or any of the rabbanim who spoke to us during the shiva, that their arrival at home in one piece was a neis galui. I have many such stories about my dad O”H throughout his life, and have recounted some of them here. It is because of these incidents that I KNOW Hashem is always watching out for us.October 17, 2010 3:10 am at 3:10 am #701687
Oomis, my mom was niftar Oct. 4, the 27th of Tishrei.
I met this young lady when I volunteered at an alternative school for at risk kids 8 years ago after my aunt was nifter. At first she ignored me but then we clicked. She became a daughter to me and we have been through some highs and lows along her journey. I told her two basic rules in HS at that time, she was a senior and wanted to go to seminary. I said hang with the winners and keep your eye on the prize. B”H she did go to E”Y and I was zoche to visit her there. To make a long story short she, B”H, became a nurse like her mother who passed away when she was only 11. She married a very nice yeshiva bochur and settled in my neighborhood. She is a very huge part of my household and is one of my most frequent Shabbos Guests. She has said to me a million times that she doesn’t know what she would do without me, but in return I have replied that she is a gift to me from Hashem and I don’t know what my life would be like without her.
This young lady, this angel of a nurse, administered to my mother the last 2 days of her life. For some reason she was cancelled from her job on these two days and so she was available to come over. As we always say, there is no such thing as coincidence in Yiddishkeit. She dealt with the doctor and made sure not only that my mom was comfortable and did not suffer, but kept me and the rest of my family calm and in control. My mother died peacefully in her own room in her own home without tubes or wires just oxygen and some medication to help her breathing. My mom died on her own terms in her own way. Her name was Malka and she left like a queen surrounded by her family al pi halacha before and after her petira.
I told my young nurse, THIS is why Hashem sent you to me and you became a part of my life. I could not have helped my mother on her journey without you. You were the sheliach, really the angel that allowed my mother to pass without suffering and if you were not in my life I could not have been mechabed my mother in this way. I myself could not have supported my mother without the normal and usual emotional hysterics which would normally accompany watching your own mother die if you did not stay calm and keep us calm through the process.
I have said it many times throughout my work with at-risk teens. It is not difficult to love someone else’s child because they are all Hashem’s children. Hashem literally placed this child in my arms to love and nurture and she in turn loved and nurtured my Mother and eased her in her final journey to olam habah.October 17, 2010 3:27 am at 3:27 am #701688oomisParticipant
Again, Aries, my deepest condolences, HaMakom Yenachem eschem b’soch sh’ar aveilei Tzion V’Yerushalayim. I don’t know how I missed that, or if you posted about it, or if I am spacing out and even might have read such a post and responded – but that being said, I know the pain of the loss of my own mother, so I feel for your sorrow. Auf simchas.October 18, 2010 6:21 am at 6:21 am #701689The Best BubbyParticipant
To Aries 2756: I was davening for your Mom A’H. May she be a meilitza yashara for you, your family and Klall Yisrael.
I am so very sorry I have not seen this sooner, I am B’H busy with my son’s forthcoming chasuna I’YH.
May H’KBH grant all of you alter chaim tovim aruchim ve neeimim with an abundance of HAGEFEN = hatzlacha rabbah bechol maasei yedaychem, good gezunt, good parnasa and yiddishe nachus. May you have much nechama. May we all share many simachos with simcha with much achdus between all the Yidden. I remember you writing on a different thread about your dear Father Z’TL and I had tears running down my cheeks. He was just like my Dad Z’TL. Our Parents Z’TL came from the same mold, that does not exist anymore.
Hamokom Yenachem Etchem Betoch Shaar Avaylei Zion Ve Yerushalayim.October 18, 2010 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #701690
Just to be Modeh al Haemes- I looked into the inyan a little more, and perhaps I was misrepresenting some of the Rishonim. The Ramban actually says clearly in his Hakdomoh to Iov that what happens to a person, bein ltov bein lrah, is all part of Hashem’s plan. However, it seems that the idea of Hashgochoh Pratis is one step beyond this: an extra shmira/direction from Hashem. It is still not clear to me exactly who receives this “extra” & exactly what that means: after all everything is planned by Hashem. I would love to know any Mekoros somebody can mention (not opinions) very shortly & succintly (without taking over the discussion)…….October 18, 2010 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #701691
Why is that a Stira? Everything is planned, but for some there are better plans.
I never saw someone be Modeh in the CR. Is it just a trick to get me to be Modeh :?)October 18, 2010 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #701692
Its a beautiful thing to see that you are being Modeh Al Haemes. Not so common here as HaLeiVi says. Hopefully others will learn from your example and do the same when applicable.October 18, 2010 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #701693
First I want to acknowledge all the nechamas and good wishes, and also please keep the good news coming my way, I appreciate that.
Secondly, it is great chizuk to anyone when we stop for a second and recognize Hashem’s hand at any given point of day. That is real chizuk to feel that Hashem is by our side and watching out for us.October 18, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #701694
According to psychologists (and common sense, of course), lack of discipline to our children causes a disconnect rather than a connection. The child doesn’t feel that he is living up to a standard and is left on his own. When you demand something from him, that is a psychological grasp, or holding his (mental) hand.
In the same vain, we feel Hashem’s love when he answers our Tefillos, but there is also a very strong and close connection to be realized when we get a message of discipline, too. For example, once I was in a rush and therefore didn’t want to go a little out of my way for someone. As I went on my way the road became blocked, and I ended up having to go down that same street that the person wanted to go. This is not a Ness, but when it happens right away and in the manner of instant feedback you feel the closeness of Hashem as a father guiding His son.October 19, 2010 8:46 am at 8:46 am #701695vnishmartemmeodMember
I say, when you focus on that, you see it “all the time”.
And yes, sometimes the answer is “no, shefele”.
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