June 25, 2012 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #880987Loyal JewMember
rsrh, no denigration intended. Indeed, the world outside the beis medresh is where we apply halacha. But the person I was responding to twisted things in an upside-down New Age direction: he said that the goal is to “know ourselves,” that we should do this by mingling with goyim on the job, and that this is “chinuch.” By that logic, we don’t really know kosher food until we eat a rabbit, we don’t really know shmiras Shabbos until we do chillul Shabbos, etc., all of which being “chinuch.” “Ibmzr” feels that his place is in learning and is aghast about being forced out, and as one who was also forced out I refuse to join with anyone who makes light of it.June 25, 2012 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #880988far eastMember
loyal jew- theres a big difference between mingling with goyim, and acting Like goyim. Big difference between hanging out with someone who eats a rabbit, and actually eating a rabbit. Big difference between Experiencing someone who doesnt keep shabbos, and actually not keeping shabbos yourself.
By my logic… you dont know what keeping shabbos is until youve been with people who dont keep shabbos. Thats when life becomes a challenge. Thats when your forced to concsiously make a decison to keep shabbos, instead of doing it because of habit and cause you dont know any other way. And if you stop being frum when you do experience it, that means you never fully internalized it while in yeshiva.
Is it terrible for me to say my life didnt start until i left yeshiva and was forced to see the real world. Thats when i stopped being frum out of habit, and began being shomer mitzvohs for the true correct reasons. Im not advocating leaving yeshiva at all, just saying it doesnt mean the best part of your life is over…June 25, 2012 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #880989gavra_at_workParticipant
Open a store.
When you have sold enough to support yourself (including full tuition) for the day, close your store and go to the Bais Medrash.
That is what the Chofetz Chaim did. Try it!June 26, 2012 1:44 am at 1:44 am #880990oomisParticipant
How is a Kollel guy supposed to support 37 mouths (His 5 daughters and Son-In-Laws , 25 grand kids , himself and his wife)”
Excellent point!June 26, 2012 1:52 am at 1:52 am #880991pcozMember
I am open to all offers to anyone who wants to support meJune 26, 2012 2:51 am at 2:51 am #880992mddMember
Shlishi, the point was that frum society could not afford to support a bigger percentage.June 26, 2012 4:15 am at 4:15 am #880993lbmzrMember
yitayningwut – The ????? at the end of my last post was my own – not a quote from the ???”?. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
BTguy – Obviously, one of the goals of working is to make money to pay for good things. However, someone who works at a job only to make a buck, is going to have a sour taste with the job itself.
The kiddush hashem concept is a good answer, as is the answer that we are supposed to utilize the Torah to act properly in the world.
But, there is a big BUT. To act properly, one has to know the Torah first. There is so much ???? ???? that could be put into use; so much ?????? ??????, so many priorities to set correctly. And for that, the more Torah one knows, the more he can act accordingly. I personally will know enough Torah to be confident to go into the world in around 40-50 years!June 26, 2012 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #880994ItcheSrulikMember
That’s one of the things that irked me about yeshiva. They focus on “learning” without the goal of acquiring knowledge. In one year at three hours a day working to acquire knowledge you can learn more than you would in two years at the standard pace.June 26, 2012 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #880995
“I personally will know enough Torah to be confident to go into the world in around 40-50 years!”
Can your wife whom the Torah commands you to support wait that long?June 26, 2012 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #880996
“and as one who was also forced out I refuse to join with anyone who makes light of it.”
Loyal Jew, your are complaining about a Torah mandated obligation to support your family.June 26, 2012 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #880997ShelmayMember
I feel for you. I was in kollel for about six years and then went to law school, and graduated in 2011. It was extremely difficult for me to enjoy school and study because I felt that what I was learning had no intrinsic purpose. When I expressed these feelings to my Rebbi he laughed and said that providing for one’s family is extremely fulfilling. At the time, I was dissatisfied with the answer and felt misunderstood. However, after actually bringing home some “dough” I see that we was right. Additionally, I have found a job in the legal field that involves people and gives me some satisfaction.
In short, my humble advice to you is:
1) Realize, that your feelings, while coming from a noble place, may be coming from a theoretical perspective considering the prospect of working in the abstract, and may change dramatically
once you enter the practical phase and actually start providing for your mishpocha.
2) In most jobs you are helping others. While it may not be dramatic as saving lives or marriages, in almost any field, you will enter you can be providing services to others in a pleasant, honest and giving manner, (see Rav Dessler Kuntres Habechira), as well be a good colleague to your co-workers, enhancing their lives, and possibly making a Kiddush Hashem to boot.
3) The Chovos Halevavos in Shaar Habbitachon writes that Hashem placed in each person a desire or atttraction to a certain area and a person go with inner voice in choosing a profession, and then have bittachon that ultimately hashem is the one providing.
As far as your other issue – I have found a job in a frum office and I don’t know how I would deal with a non-frum situtaion. Obviously though, having a rav with whom your are in constant contact, especially at the initial stages of your career will go a long way in assuring that you reamin the ben torah you are.
Best wishes for HatzlochoJune 26, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #880998pcozMember
working is a moyredike zechus becuase you can learn from your boss what yiras shamayim meansJune 27, 2012 3:29 am at 3:29 am #880999lbmzrMember
Shelmay – Thanks for your thoughts on the issue.
You probably meant Rav Dessler in Kuntres HaChesed instead of Kuntres Habechira. The Kuntres HaChesed is a must for any spiritually striving-thinking individual.June 27, 2012 9:19 am at 9:19 am #881000Loyal JewMember
Far east, mingling itself is assur in many cases and strongly discouraged or limited in others. Where spiritual danger is involved, the main requirement is to avoid it, not to seek it out in order to create opportunities for “learning” or “kiddush Hashem.”
Josh31, yes, there is a Torah mandated obligation to support one’s family. There is also a Torah mandated obligation to learn. Our rabbonim guided us in how to do both: via our parents’ obligation to support Torah. Not me, but Torah. Some of us can’t represent Torah properly and others have parents who cannot meet their obligation (I don’t speak of those who refuse to meet it, they have to answer to Hashem). Then the avreich may have to go to work, all of which under guidance from da’as Torah.June 27, 2012 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #881001
“via our parents’ obligation to support Torah”
“others have parents who cannot meet their obligation (I don’t speak of those who refuse to meet it, they have to answer to Hashem).”
WOW. You have created a hard and fast obligation on parents to support their married children in Kollel as long as possible. How much mesiras nefesh does this fixed obligation require?
I want to create an obligation on zealous right wingers who have been told by their Daas Torah to leave Kollel and go to work to do so without complaining or murmuring.
This is consistent with the Hashkafa of the Right Wing that any mumuring against Daas Torah is a great sin.
Those who learn in Kollel and recognize that they are unusually fortunate to have the needed support and are Makir Tov to all their benefactors will enhance Kavod HaTorah.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.