February 15, 2017 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #619266LitvosMember
I couldn’t find any thread about the Brooklyn’s 5th District court judge Rachel Freier who comes from a Hasidic family. It says she has attended a bais yaakov and went on to study at Touro College graduating with B.A. in Poltical Science. Later she enrolled on a part-time program at Brooklyn Law School, so that she would have time to raise her children.
I vaguely remember there was a thread talking about jobs that women shouldn’t do (may not be the right word). Do you agree with her position in public office? She seems to have the support from local Chassidim.February 15, 2017 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1216588
Joseph is going to say that a Jew is not allowed to be a judge, but he’s wrong.February 15, 2017 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1216589
Jews, male or female, should not be taking a position as a judge on a non-Jewish court that will have cases involving two Jewish parties litigating against each other. It is forbidden for Jews to litigate a case against each other in non-Jewish courts. And it is forbidden for a Jew to judge a case between two Jews who are non-halachicly using non-Jewish law instead of halacha (especially if one of the litigants doesn’t want to be in non-Jewish court or using non-Jewish law, but it only there because the non-Jewish law and authorities force him to attend and respond to the case.)
Secondly, women shouldn’t be taking public positions.
Sadly, whenever this is pointed out (about becoming a judge on a non-Jewish court being halachicly wrong), despite explaining the extremely severe issur arkaos involved, the retort of supporters of Jews becoming judges on non-Jewish courts invariably is that “he asked a shaila”. (Unfailingly to a rabbi who must remain anonymous too.) They virtually never can offer a halachic rational explaining how they can overcome the serious prohibition against arkaos and, specifically, judging cases between Jews who are in non-Jewish court Keneged Halacha (at least one of the parties to the case, with the other Jewish party simply being dragged into non-Jewish court against his will.)
Well, at least they can say “he’s wrong” and leave it at that.February 15, 2017 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1216590baisyaakovliberalParticipant
This is interesting! Does anyone know what Chasidic group she identifies with?February 15, 2017 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1216591
1. Google “Can a Jew serve as a secular judge?” I would add that where the Jews are non-observant there is no issur of ????? ???? ????? (see Iggerot Moshe YD 1:72).
2. If you are talking about a ????, there is no issue regarding gentiles. Regarding Israel, Rav Shaul Yisraeli says (Amud HaYemini 12:5 – available on-line) that it only refers to a position held for life and passed on to the incumbent’s son . Someone who can be turned out of office by the public or does not hold the position for life or whose son does not inherit it does not hold a ????. Rather (s)he is an employee of the public – and anyone can be an employee.
3. Rav Yaakov Ariel says that it is a mitzva for someone who can rule in such a way that the ruling will be upheld on appeal and is in line with the Halacha to be a judge. He also encouraged a certain knowledgeable woman to study Law and pursue a career in public service.February 15, 2017 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1216592👑RebYidd23Participant
Devorah took a public position.February 15, 2017 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1216593WinnieThePoohParticipant
Mishpacha magazine had an article about her not so long ago.February 15, 2017 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1216594
Avi, an American judge cannot rule in accordance with halacha if secular law on a matter differs from the halacha.February 15, 2017 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1216595
It seems to me that this thread is L”H since it is about a real person who was actually named and posters are saying that she is doing something assur.
Even if you want to say that it’s l’toeles, that would only be the case if the people involved in the discussion (or at least those saying that what she is doing is wrong) were reliable Poskim who could posken this (or at least reliable sources of passing on piskei halacha). Since we don’t know who they are, they are not reliable as far as we are concerned (even if they may be in real life).
And even if they were, I’m not sure it’s okay, since: 1. There may be other opinions, and 2. It’s unlikely anyone here needs this information, and if it’s nogeiah l’maaseh, they should ask their own sheilah (not in the CR).February 16, 2017 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1216596
DaasYochid I’m in awe ~ well done!February 16, 2017 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1216597
DY never provided a halachic rational how a Jew presiding as judge in a non-Jewish court is not oiver the severe issur of arkaos, when (s)he’s using non-Jewish laws at odd with Jewish law to judge a case where a Jewish plaintiff sued a Jewish defendant in non-Jewish court kneged halacha and refused the defendants pleas to take the dispute to beis din instead.February 16, 2017 2:54 am at 2:54 am #1216598
I didn’t get into the specifics of what a judge needs to do if (when) such a situation occurs. I just dispute your assertion that this is an insurmountable impediment to him (or her) taking the position of judge.February 16, 2017 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1216599LitvosMember
I can’t disagree, LU. If a moderator would be kind enough to delete it, close it or at least remove the name from my first post, it would be best. It actually is leshon hara thread when I took a second look. Thank you!February 16, 2017 3:06 am at 3:06 am #1216600
So go into the specifics. It can’t be that hard to explain.
The only workaround proffered (by someone else on this forum) is for the judge to recuse himself from such an all-Jewish case. The problem with that suggestion is that judicial rules don’t permit a recusal for that reason and the judge would have to justify a recusal where the litigants didn’t request it (with a purportedly valid cause), and would be unable to in such a case. And in a jurisdiction such as New York, with a very large Jewish population, unfortunately getting such cases will invariably occur.
If you have any alternative workarounds, I’m all ears in hearing it out.February 16, 2017 3:12 am at 3:12 am #1216601
Ooops sorry Joseph.
Please forgive me. I didn’t mean for it to look/read like I was saying that he was right for accusing you of being wrong.
I was in awe of DY’s ability to predict what you were going to say.
I’m not versed enough to say that I support the second part of his statement. Even if I was, I don’t think it’s so clear cut or saying that you’re wrong is really right for me to do.
I know that I read DY’s post but I honestly forgot that part by the time that I saw your post. I was just impressed that he suspected that you would reply and then you did so.
So in summary… sorry I meant that I was in awe and good work about predicting Joseph’s opinion. Not the latter part of DY’s post.
BTW to both of you… Is it really black and white where it’s either way 100%?February 16, 2017 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1216602
Joseph, you’re the one who is claiming that it is absolutely assur so you are the one who needs proof. Your post was not any kind of proof. Proof would mean something like a teshuva from Rav Moshe Feinstein zatsal saying that it is absolutely assur for any Jew to ever be a judge.
And I don’t even think that’s proof because there could be different opinions. The fact is that there is no way for you to prove it, because you don’t know enough to be able to make such a blanket statement. This is something that only a poseik can answer, and you have no business poskening that this lady is doing something assur.February 16, 2017 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1216603
Joseph,btw, when LB said that she’s in awe of DY I think she must have been referring to the fact that he knew what you were going to say.February 16, 2017 4:57 am at 4:57 am #1216604
There’s been several previous discussions on this topic and I’ve said substantially the same points.February 16, 2017 5:37 am at 5:37 am #1216605
There’s been several previous discussions on this topic and I’ve said substantially the same points.
Yes, nothing remarkable about my prediction.February 16, 2017 5:42 am at 5:42 am #1216606
Joseph: Makes sense. I’m less schooled in Josephology so for me it was impressive.February 16, 2017 6:02 am at 6:02 am #1216607
1. An American trial judge is more like a referee than a judge. The jury decides the verdict. the judge only relates the legal issues after receiving opinions by the two lawyers. An appeals judge can use Talmudic reasoning and psychological insights. They can also cite Jewish law to support their opinions. CJ Warren cited Rambam’s explanation of why a confession is inadmissible in a criminal case in the “Miranda” decision and Justice Scalia cited Chazal’s statement that a judge who accepts a bribe loses divine inspiration in “Caperton v. A. T. Massey Coal Co” (see “Justice Scalia As Talmudic Scholar” by Natahhn Lewin on-line).
2. Did you read Rav Moshe’s teshuva? I did, however, hear about a case where two Chassidim took their case to a secular court and the frum judge rebuked them for not going to a bet din. I do not know about the US but in Israel judges can clear their calendars by sending the parties to arbitration or mediation. The bet din of Eretz Hemdah-Gazit has such a sterling reputation that even non-observant judges refer cases to them.February 16, 2017 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1216608CTLAWYERParticipant
“1. An American trial judge is more like a referee than a judge. The jury decides the verdict. the judge only relates the legal issues”
If this wasn’t the CR, I’d accuse you of watching too much television.
The vast majority of American trials are NOT jury trials. They are bench trials decided by a judge.
The right to a jury trial varies by jurisdiction but has minimum requirements such as severity of charge and penalty in a criminal case and the amount being sued for in a civil case.
Traffic, housing, divorce, custody, small claims actually make of the bulk of trials in most states and are not jury trials.
Even in jury trials, a judge can set aside the jury’s verdict.
The judge does not “relate” legal issues. The judge instructs the jury in the law when charging them before they deliberate. The attorneys are able to argue what they would like included in the jury charge, but only the judge has the authority to decide the words of the charge.February 16, 2017 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1216609
I now confess my sin. In my misspent youth I watched TV. Among my favorite shows were”Perry Mason”(#2 on the ABA list of best lawyer shows), “Owen Marshall, Counselor at Law” (#12) and “Judd for the Defense” (#22). I also saw the original version of “Twelve Angry Men” (excellent psychological study and very Chareidi – not one woman in the whole movie) as well as take-offs on “The Odd Couple” and “All in the Family”.
In any case, TY for the correction. However, my understanding is that a judge can/will only overturn a verdict if he thinks that it is way out of line. On the other hand, there is jury nullification.
As for your semantic disagreement, lehavdil elef alfei hevdalim, Rav Aviner says that a rav who answers a question according to what has already been written in books is not paskening but relating the halacha. “Paskening” means giving a ruling on a new question.
So now for $544,072.11 (the value of 64,000 1958 dollars in today’s money) question. Do you agree with Joseph or me?
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