Hasn't gotten a date

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  • #614422

    balancehumanbalance
    Participant

    I have a single friend who lives out of town. She is 23 years old and hasn’t gotten a date. She is pretty, went to a good seminary, dresses well, attends shiurim, and works in a frum office. How many people do you know in a similar situation? How normal/ needs help is this?

    No critics please, just trying to find common ground.

    #1070279

    appdev
    Participant

    I can put up an ad for her in one of my apps if you’d like…

    #1070280

    Chochom-ibber
    Participant

    No dates out-of-town? I have plenty out-of-town friends dating and many married. Does she live in Antarctica?

    #1070281

    Being Real
    Participant

    Is her family situation regular?Hate to do this but maybe shes for me I am looking for an out of towner that age

    #1070282

    oot for life
    Participant

    Living out of town has a few drawbacks this could be included in that list (along with lack of pizza options).

    You listed that “She is pretty, went to a good seminary, dresses well, attends shiurim, and works in a frum office.”

    Is she doing her histadlus? Meeting with shadchanim, going to events, (and here’s the big thing) willing to travel?

    Its tough in shidduchim wherever a person is, but I think like with everything in life you get out what you put in, the more effort the more success.

    #1070283

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Oy life without new york pizza?? do people really live like this???

    #1070285

    #I’m an out of town girl, BH I don’t have a problem getting dates. It’s about going out of your comfort zone, and calling people, emialing people, joining shadchan websites…

    #1070286

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    sheesh. yknow what i hate though? girls always complain they dont get dates, and then when they finally get one they say “no” after one.

    #1070287

    Health
    Participant

    Oyoyoy- The reason they say “No” is because they think there is something better. Why? Because a lot of girls are spoiled, especially here in America!

    #1070288

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    A girl has a right not to get married if she so chooses.

    #1070289

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    You’re missing the point. The reason they should give it another chance is to get a better picture of the boy before judging anything, it’s not like they’re swimming in names.

    #1070290

    OOT girls have 3 options when theyre 23:

    1. Move to a big city.

    2. Be flexible about traveling for dating. That means flexibility at work, with bosses/job that allows for flexibility.

    3. Wait til the guy comes to you (not the best option).

    With all the above, speak to everyone you meet and tell them what youre looking for. You never know who the Shaliach is.

    #1070291

    charliehall
    Participant

    “joining shadchan websites”

    I was living in New York City but my wife was living “Out of town” when she contacted me through one of the frum dating websites. Baruch HaShem we are coming up on ten years of marriage soon.

    #1070292

    balancehumanbalance
    Participant

    Thanks for the suggestions MS Shadchan and Charlie Hall… Do you know anyone in similar situations? What else did they do?

    #1070293

    Another piece of advice. Look as good as you can, in general, and make sure you have a really good and recent picture both on your Shidduch resume and dating website, if youre on. I hate to tell it like it is, but girls’ looks/picture is more important than everything else combined. It is what it is.

    This advice doesnt hurt boys either.

    #1070294

    Joseph
    Participant

    Girls dating pictures helps, basically, with boys looking for vanity. If that’s the type of guy she’s looking for, what can I tell you.

    #1070295

    Health
    Participant

    RY23 – A boy also has the same right.

    #1070296

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Lior:

    See the Radak and Ralbag about Yaakov choosing between Rachel and Leah.

    Radak:

    ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????’ ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ???????? ???? ?????

    Ralbag:

    ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????

    and Ralbag again:

    ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????

    #1070297

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Though I’m not sure how this Ralbag fits with what he wrote in Parshas Lech Lecha to explain why Sarah and Rachel gave their ????? to their husbands:

    ??? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ??? ???

    And which he reiterated in Parshas Vayeitzei:

    ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ????

    #1070298

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I did not say that boys have to get married.

    #1070299

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Many a young woman will come to New York for dating. Does your friend object to doing that?

    #1070300

    Health
    Participant

    RY 23 – Acc. to the Torah, both boys & girls ( Men & Women) have to get married. But it’s not for the same reason.

    #1070301

    Patur Aval Assur, would you please at least loosely translate to English, what you posted above in Hebrew? Thanks.

    #1070302

    bygirl93
    Member

    Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the whole point of marriage for boy’s so that they can fulfill the mitzvah of Piru’urivu? Pretty sure that that mitzvah doesn’t apply to girls.

    #1070303

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Medium Size Shadchan:

    (This is something between a translation and a summary.)

    The Radak:

    Question: Why would Tzadikim, whose intentions of marriage are to progenate, seek beautiful women? Yaakov chose Rachel because she was beautiful, and was upset at Lavan for giving him Leah, because Leah was less beautiful. Why would he do this?

    Answer 1: In order to increase their progeny, they wanted to arouse their desire, hence they would choose beautiful women.

    Answer 2: They wanted their children to be beautiful and to look like them.

    Answer 3: Having her form in front of him will gladden him and man is supposed to be happy in his world and with the portion that H’ gives him. H’ provides the righteous with beautiful women as he did for our forefathers and other righteous people, so that they should be happy with their lot and have kids like themselves.

    #1070304

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The first Ralbag:

    Lavan had two daughters. Yaakov did not choose the older one, because her eyes were soft and teary which is a malady. He chose the younger one so that he would have progeny from her who would be more complete and healthier. And also because she was beautiful.

    #1070305

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The second Ralbag:

    The tenth lesson is that a man should choose a woman who is complete of form, as his progeny from her will be healthier and fuller. This is why Yaakov did not choose Leah who was teary-eyed which is a malady, and instead chose Rachel who was beautiful. Additionally, this would allow him to channel his desire towards her and not to think of other women.

    #1070307

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bygirl93, that is not the only reason to get married.

    #1070308

    bygirl93
    Member

    DY- I am very well aware of that. BUT if you get down to the actual detail about what you learn in school- that’s pretty much it. At least in typical bais Yaakovs where they don’t teach gemara. That’s pretty much all a girl learns is the HALACHIC reasoning- there are lots of obvious reasons- this is just the one that tends to be taught is halacha.

    #1070309

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Well, you wanted someine to correct you if you were wrong..

    #1070310

    bygirl93
    Member

    *someone 😛

    #1070311

    Health
    Participant

    BYgirl 93- What BY school did you learn Halacha reasoning in? The Halacha is both men & women Have to get married!

    #1070312

    SaraCFL
    Participant

    I am 22 and I am an out of town girl. I went to Brooklyn for a couple of months and I did get more dates but I found it harder to meet someone serious and the shadchanim are busier! so I moved back home where I get fewer dates but the shadchanim suggest more serious boys. I think that the key to out of town dating is to work with shadchanim and be on dating websites. You probably aren’t going to bump into “the one” at the one pizza place in 20 miles, but you might 🙂

    #1070313

    balancehumanbalance
    Participant

    Thank you Sara – that was insightful.

    #1070314

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    PAA- that took guts. kinda scary how mechavein i was. where are those?

    #1070315

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    oyyoyyoy:

    Are you referring to the fact that I originally quoted them, or to the fact that I translated/summarized them? If the latter, notice how there is no translation provided for the third Ralbag. And it’s not because I didn’t provide it, if you get what I mean.

    Anyway, the Radak is on Genesis 29:18

    The first Ralbag is in parshas Vayeitzi in the Mosad Harav Kook edition p.183

    The second Ralbag is in the list of ??????, specifically the tenth ?????, on p. 194 in the Mosad Harav Kook edition.

    The first part of the third Ralbag is in Lech Lecha on p. 119 in the Mosad Harav Kook edition and the second part is in Vayetzei on p. 186 in the Mosad Harav Kook edition.

    #1070316

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    If the latter, notice how there is no translation provided for the third Ralbag. And it’s not because I didn’t provide it, if you get what I mean.

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/things-that-are-ok-to-say-in-hebrew-but-not-in-english

    #1070317

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I have a single friend who lives out of town. She is 23 years old and hasn’t gotten a date.

    I have awesome advice. R’ Yochanan Luria in his commentary to Parshas Beshalach writes:

    ?? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????

    ?? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????

    ??? ??? ???

    And he confirms this one page later:

    ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ??????

    ?? ??????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???

    ?????

    #1070318

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    To address a tangential discussion:

    bygirl93 said:

    Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the whole point of marriage for boy’s so that they can fulfill the mitzvah of Piru’urivu? Pretty sure that that mitzvah doesn’t apply to girls.

    DaasYochid said:

    Bygirl93, that is not the only reason to get married.

    bygirl93 said:

    DY- I am very well aware of that. BUT if you get down to the actual detail about what you learn in school- that’s pretty much it. At least in typical bais Yaakovs where they don’t teach gemara. That’s pretty much all a girl learns is the HALACHIC reasoning- there are lots of obvious reasons- this is just the one that tends to be taught is halacha.

    DaasYochid said:

    Well, you wanted someine to correct you if you were wrong..

    Health said:

    BYgirl 93- What BY school did you learn Halacha reasoning in? The Halacha is both men & women Have to get married!

    There are three potential reasons why a girl would have to get married:

    1) ??? ????

    2) ???? ????

    3) ???

    It’s a machlokes Tannaim in Yevamos 65b whether a woman is chayev in ??? ????. The halacha follows the Tanna Kamma that she is not obligated.

    Tosafos in Gittin 41b ?”? ?? holds that a woman is obligated in ???, but this position is not accepted by the codifiers of halacha.

    Which leaves the issue of ???. The Rambam in Hilchos Ishus 15:16 writes:

    ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????.

    The Tur does not mention this, and the Rema in Even Ha’ezer 1:13 writes:

    ??”? ?”? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????

    Now this is an interesting lashon. It doesn’t say that it’s assur to not marry, nor does it say that she is obligated to marry. It says that she shouldn’t be without a husband. This is significant as we shall see.

    Various commentators point out that it’s a stirah in the Rambam. We just quoted him as saying ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? yet in Issurei Biah 21:26 he writes:

    ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????

    which clearly implies that she never has to get married under any circumstances. The various commentators suggest various answers.

    A few acharonim suggest that the Rambam in Issurei Biah is talking about a place where there would be no chashad, e.g. if there are no men in that place.

    The ???? ??? quotes this suggestion and says ???? ??? ????. He then gives two answers:

    1) ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????

    2) ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???”?

    The ??? ???? quotes an answer that min hadin a woman does not have to get married at all and “??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????” is an eitzah tovah.

    So to conclude, there are definitely grounds to argue that a woman is not obligated to get married. DaasYochid, the thing that bygirl93 said “correct me if I’m wrong” on was ??? ????, so even if you are right that there is a different obligation, bygirl93 was still correct and therefore you were not actually correcting her for being wrong. However, the lashon you used was “that is not the only reason to get married” which does not necessarily indicate that you think that there is an obligation to get married, but merely a reason to get married. But Health explicitly stated that there is an obligation, so this post is primarily a response to him, pointing out that it’s not so pashut.

    Even if there is no obligation for her to get married, she still gets a mitzvah of helping the man fulfill his mitzvah. As the ??? ???? writes:

    ???”? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?”? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?????

    #1070319

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    wow, u do have guts

    #1070323

    Vogue
    Member

    I would say that for me, I also live out of town and do not really get the opportunity to go to ny. I have gotten 20+ suggestions over the past year. I ended up getting two phone dates with one person out of it. I said no to some guys and some guys said no to me. I think that the key thing is that you need to network. Also, every time that you go to another city, even if it is a smaller community- like St. Louis or Memphis, to try to ask about meeting at least one shadchan on your trip.

    #1070324

    ChizukGedarim
    Participant

    @PAA, I love the fact that you bring up such interesting meforshim. But I just wanted to clarify that although it is true that ?????? would be allowed certain laxness, today they are considered ????? and are treated with all the stringency allowed by halacha

    #1070325

    TheGoq
    Participant

    “I ended up getting two phone dates with one person out of it.”

    Why would you want to date someone who is out of it?

    #1070326

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    ChizukGedarim:

    Without getting too involved, not everyone agrees. See Shu”t B’nei Banim 4:7:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20023&st=&pgnum=25

    and particularly the second to last paragraph of the teshuva where he writes:

    ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ????? ??’ ??”? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????

    #1070328

    MDG
    Participant

    PAA said, “Tosafos in Gittin 41b ?”? ?? holds that a woman is obligated in ???, but this position is not accepted by the codifiers of halacha.”

    PAA, can you please cite where it’s (not) mentioned in the Tur, Sh”Ar, Kitzur, Aruch Hashulchan, etc.

    #1070329

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    MDG:

    None of them mention it when they discuss the chiyuv of peru urevu.

    The Rambam in Ishus 15:2 says that men are chayev in peru urevu and women are not.

    The Tur in Even Ha’ezer in the end of siman 1 states that a woman is not obligated in peru urevu. He doesn’t say that she is obligated in sheves.

    The Shulchan Aruch in Even Ha’ezer 1:13 says that a woman is not obligated in peru urevu, yet he doesn’t mention anything about an obligation of sheves. The Rema there, adds the yesh omrim that she should get married because of chashad but he doesn’t say that she should get married because of sheves.

    The Levush in Even Ha’ezer 1:13 says that women are not obligated in peru urevu and in 1:14 he mentions the issue of chashad. Again, there is no mention of an obligation of sheves.

    That was all proof by omission. The Aruch Hashulchan is explicit though. In Even Ha’ezer 1:2 he says that women are not obligated in peru urevu. In 1:3 he quotes the Rema about chashad. Then in 1:4 he writes:

    ?? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??”? ?”? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??”? ????’ ?’ ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??”? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????”? ?????? ????’ ?’ ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??”? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ??”? ???’ ??”? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ????’ ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? [????? ?”?: ??”? ?”? ?] ??? ??? ?????? ????????? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ????”? ??? ????? ????????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ??”? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???????? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??”? ???”? ??’ ??”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??”? ??? ???? ??? ??”? ????? ???”? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ?”? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??”?

    Also see the ??? ???? on the Rambam in Hilchos Ishus 15:16 who proves that the Rambam doesn’t hold of sheves for a woman from he fact that in Issurei Biah 21:26 the Rambam writes:

    ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????

    So I think we see that the Poskim reject Tosafos’s position. The Aruch Hashulchan actually claims that even Tosafos doesn’t hold that women are obligated in sheves. He claims that it’s impossible for women to have such an obligation because he understands that sheves simply the force behind peru urevu, and women are not obligated in peru urevu.

    #1070330

    MDG
    Participant

    PAA,

    Thank you !

    #1070331

    Vogue
    Member

    What I ended up figuring out from the phone dates with that person was basically everything I am not looking for in a shidduch.

    In my case:

    -BT (works for many, but it depends on who you are and how you became frum, I have a very unusual case in which it would not work for me due to my personal circumstances prior education and life experiences)

    -Chabad (works for many- not for me. I have plenty of lubavitch friends and relatives).

    -Unemployed but not in Kollel and no initiative to get a job or go to school and not even looking into semicha programs. Just bumming around with beer buddies, sees no potential in himself.

    -No desire to further himself

    -Pushover with not-solid hashkafos

    -Bipolar (and he texted me to tell me instead of calling me… I went to the doctor. I called. I texted you. what happened at the dr office? I was diagnosed with bipolar today).

    -Resentful of upbringing

    -No desire to grow as a person

    -Resentful of siblings who aren’t frum/family situation

    -Jealous of my previous frum experiences

    -Basically put his entire adult and personal life on hold because he started keeping shabbos. But on the converse, someone who was born frum, if they put their entire life on hold because of a bad teacher/other crazy lifestyle change (like frumming out), that wouldn’t work for me either.

    #1070332

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    MDG:

    You’re Welcome.

    #1070333

    Vogue, I wouldn’t expect you to personally give the guy another shot, but once he’s treated for his bipolar disorder, he should be a different person. That one detail changes the whole picture.

    (I wouldn’t expect him to actually be ready for marriage too fast, though…)

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