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  • #615871

    flatbusher
    Participant

    I noticed over the past years that even heimishe people are coming to daven minchah and maariv without hats and without jackets. In the past, it seemed that only certain types would do that but now I see the bearded, black velvet yarmulka types young and old. Any thoughts about this trend? Is it just convenience?

    #1088626

    sushibagel
    Member

    Hats on hats off

    #1088627

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Actually yes, you’re right.

    Someone who was brought up that way, kol hakavod.

    For someone to regress from his standard, that’s a step backwards. We’re supposed to dress up for davening, for talking to the most important One in the universe, ???? ????? ????? ?????. It’s not something casual, something to be done away because of an inconvenience.

    #1088628

    apushatayid
    Participant

    perhaps you are davening in the wrong places

    #1088629

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Been in enough places to see this. Not talking about yeshivos.

    #1088630

    flatbusher
    Participant

    Been in enough places to see this. Not talking about yeshivos.

    #1088631

    old man
    Participant

    If this is a trend, I’m in favor. It is definitely not a step backward for anyone. It is not a step at all, and it’s perfectly reasonable.

    #1088632

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I noticed a trend recently of people who don’t wear hats and jackets to Minchah and Maariv still sporting beards and black velvet yarmulkas. In the past, it seemed that only those who came attired to davening in jacket and hat would have beards. Anybody else notice this? Thoughts?

    #1088633

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Right you are buddy. Not a step backwards. Most definitely. Someone who used to present himself properly for his audience with ??? ???? ??????, to do away with it all… no.. nothing wrong. “For anyone”…

    “perfectly reasonable”

    sure..

    #1088636

    bk613
    Participant

    “If this is a trend, I’m in favor. It is definitely not a step backward for anyone. It is not a step at all, and it’s perfectly reasonable.”

    1) How is going out of your way to put on a hat and jacket in honor of davening not a step up from not doing anything special in honor of davening.

    2) Why are you in favor of people not wearing hats and jackets, why do you care how they choose to present themselves? Can it be that they make you feel uncomfortable with your own level of appreciation towards davening.

    3) Also you never finish you last sentence- what is perfectly reasonable.

    #1088637

    old man
    Participant

    The editors apparently refused to post my reply from yesterday. So please don’t waste your time on comments to me, as you are engaging only yourself in this debate.

    #1088638

    Old man, your “reply” was not a response to anything. Feel free to discuss the issue.

    #1088639

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The Mishna Berurah states that a person should dress respectfully for davening. He quotes the Chayei Adam who said that since people usually walk in the street with a hat, a hat should be worn during davening. It is obvious that the “respectful” mode of dress changes based on the society one lives in. In the early 20th century, when it was considered respectful to wear a hat, that was required for davening. In modern times, however, it is rare for most people to wear hats (unless they’re attending a sporting event). It would seem, therefore, that it is not required.

    In fact, it would seem that not wearing a hat is better than wearing a beat-up fedorah with stains on it (as I often see in yeshivos). Wearing a beat-up hat is definitely disrespectful!

    It would seem the best practice is to make sure you’re dressed neatly, with clean clothes, and your shirt tucked in. Wearing a t-shirt with a jacket over it isn’t the way to go. Wear a nice button-down shirt. If you were going to meet the president, would you wear jeans and a t-shirt?

    #1088640

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Someone who used to present himself properly for his audience with ??? ???? ??????,

    Unwarranted assumption. Please prove the assumption before continuing with your conclusion.

    🙂

    #1088641

    hakohen53
    Participant

    Unfortunately this trend of going to daven without a hat started about 15 years ago. It is a slippery slope where now it is “normal” to daven without a jacket as well. Recently people started coming to shul in shorts and/or sandals without socks (as if going to the beach!!). This is not yet as common, but it will be. It already started. Let me remind you that 15 years ago when people started coming to shul without a hat, they argued that it would never extend to go without a jacket! As I said its a slippery slope.

    I won’t put the blame on any higher ups in the spiritual hierarchy (although I can). I believe it started when young gentlemen who considered themselves talmidei chachamim, would ask “show me where it says that you have to wear a hat”. They were not concerned about a mesorah or with doing the “right” thing, even though it may not be written anywhere. I am sure that none of their Rebbeim or Rosh Yeshivas davened without a hat or jacket, and nor did they while they were still in yeshiva. Its the kovod that should be shown in a shul and when davening.

    Many will say that the hat and jacket, in todays world, is not necessarily considered as “kovod” anymore. Besides the answer of the slippery slope mentioned above, and besides the fact that we can’t determine what is kovod by measuring it against the decadence of the non-Jewish world, the fact is that this argument is just not true. The Courts, many theaters, and numerous other venues all demand a dress code and will not permit entrance without the proper attire. My gosh(!), even the Belmont Stakes which is a stupid horse race, in a smelly venue, and where everyone guzzles beer, has a dress code where the proper attire for men REQUIRES A JACKET AND A TIE. Don’t we owe the kedusha of a shul at least that??

    #1088642

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    hakohen53 – If you would like to argue that davening requires a Jacket & Tie (no fedora), then you might have legs to stand on. Is that your point? That everyone should be wearing a button-down shirt, tie and Jacket for davening?

    Besides, how old is the Mesorah to wear the Beged Isha called a Fedora?

    #1088643

    hakohen53
    Participant

    gavra- If you only want to pick on the last 2 lines of a lengthy 3 paragraph post, I guess that’s you prerogative. I was just mentioning the proper attire required at a particular horse race (although the speed at which some shuls daven can be considered a horse race. But that’s a topic for a different thread).

    I don’t know where you get the idea that a hat is a begged isha. Until JFK decided to appear at his inauguration without a hat, that was what everyone wore.

    My guess is (only a guess) that if a hat is a begged isha, its only for those who decided to stop wearing a sheitel or otherwise cover their hair (another slippery slope and yet another topic for a completely different thread).

    #1088644

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    hakohen53: Say what you want, but the halachah clearly states that the dress code for davening is based on what is considered respectful for that time and place. If you want to argue that people aren’t keeping that much, go ahead, but recognize that it’s a new approach to determining the dress code for tefillah.

    You say people come without socks, wearing sandals – in some places that may be ok! I’m sure there are countries in the Middle East where that is considered respectful, and people would go meet their king/president/Prime Minister wearing sandals. If that is the case, it’s fine to dress that way in that area. In the US, you wouldn’t go on a job interview wearing sandals, so you shouldn’t go to daven wearing them either. The fact that some do it doesn’t have anything to do with a hat and/or jacket. I’ve seen people wearing hats and jackets at shul with jeans and a t-shirt underneath. Very often, the hat is beat up, and the jacket needed to be cleaned 6 months ago.

    Your last point is true, but I don’t see what you’re trying to say. Nobody says there shouldn’t be a dress code for davening. Everyone agrees there is. You must be dressed in a respectful fashion. The only question is whether that means a hat or not. It wasn’t an excuse to wear sandals to davening.

    #1088645

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I don’t know where you get the idea that a hat is a begged isha. Until JFK decided to appear at his inauguration without a hat, that was what everyone wore.

    I said Fedora. If you want to wear a pilleus cornutus or a Yarmulka to davening then Kol HaKavod.

    I certainly agree with you that people do not dress with Kavod for davening, such as those who wear tee shirts (with a hat and jacket), and they should dress like they are “Omed Lifnei HaMelech”. I support your outrage.

    #1088646

    flatbusher
    Participant

    hakohen: I might agree it started 15 years ago, but I don’t know whether I agree with the reason. I suspect it’s something more like a few people did it, and others followed figuring they were not alone and it must be OK. I am particularly surprised when I see chasidim daven like this, since their normal dress in the summer, seems to be hat and coats.

    As for the beat-up fedora and stained jacket, I see an occasional person like this but really I rarely see that.

    #1088647

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Hakohen,

    About the hat being ??? ???, GAW is just repeating Charlie Hall’s oft mentioned nonsense.

    However, I will admit that there are synagogues where it seems that it is only the women who wear hats. Perhaps that is why he is making such a mistake.

    I think it is respectful for a man going to shul to wear a hat.

    #1088648

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    hakohen

    “Until JFK decided to appear at his inauguration without a hat, that was what everyone wore.”

    This is a myth. JFK did in fact appear with a hat at his inauguration. Pictures are readily available online.

    However he wore a tophat not a fedora. If we follow your argument though shouldn’t we wear a tophat and coat tails to davening?

    The bottom line is hat and jacket is simply a uniform adopted by the yeshiva world. It has zero to do with “dressing up” though that is proably how it started. Most of us would not wear a hat to see the PResdient (unless it was in a rabbinic setting) There are many pictures available of R’ Moshe sherer Zl or today’s askanim visiting various presidents or legislators and rarely (though not never) are they wearing a hat.

    for a tie you can make a stronger argument than a hat.

    #1088649

    old man
    Participant

    Dear Moderator

    Your reply to me was amusing. I suspect that there are thousands of replies which in any measure of objectivity, do not relate directly to the OP. Mine actually did, and was a response to a response. You deleted it because the message in it does not conform to your religious sensitivities. I dare you to print it.

    I deleted it because it did not conform to rules of basic decency. My comment was made in order to point out that as it was irrelevant, its deletion is a poor excuse to avoid further response to the topic.

    #1088650

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    About the hat being ??? ???, GAW is just repeating Charlie Hall’s oft mentioned nonsense.

    Once again, someone is co-inflating the Fedora (Sarah Bernhardt) and a hat (such as a Homburg or baseball cap).

    I said FEDORA. If you want to wear a pilleus cornutus or a Yarmulka to davening then Kol HaKavod.

    I think it is respectful for a man going to shul to wear a hat.

    Is there any logic, or is it just a “feeling”, like your gratuitous and condescending insults?

    #1088652

    old man
    Participant

    But again, yadai al hatachtonah here, wouldn’t you say?

    So, I would like the esteemed coffee room participants to kindly answer the following question.

    If a black hat and dark jacket are respectful, and possibly the only respectful clothing for men, is it also necessary to any extent that these garments be clean?

    #1088653

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    old man, that’s a very big “if” to assume. Who said a black hat and a jacket are the “only” respectful outfit for a man?

    There was an interview, I believe with R’ Yosef Tendler zt”l, where he was asked about the early days in Lakewood. One of the questions asked was if the boys wore black hats. He responded that only the Roshei Yeshiva wore black hats, and the bochurim felt that it would have been extremely chutzpadik for them to wear one!

    You can also read the interview given a few years ago by R’ Aaron Rakeffet, where he talks about learning in Lakewood during its early days. He says that even R’ Nosson Wachtfogel zt”l didn’t wear a black hat – only R’ Aharon Kotler wore one. He also said that the boys didn’t wear white shirts or black pants. He said the following:

    “But when all is said and done, the chassidim conquered America. The Litvakim lost. In the Litvishe yeshivas no one dressed the same. When I learned in Lakewood, the only one who wore a black hat was Reb Aharon Kotler.”

    #1088654

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    old man,

    If a black hat and dark jacket are respectful, and possibly the only respectful clothing for men, is it also necessary to any extent that these garments be clean?

    Absolutely. I don’t think anyone here is arguing that there is no requirement to dress nicely for davening, which would obviously mean dressing cleanly. The argument is a halachic/cultural one over what specific clothing fulfills the requirement.

    Some seem to interpret the halacha to dress nicely as meaning whatever the surrounding culture deems formal and nice. Therefore, since hats are largely out of style in the U.S., and a jacket and tie are considered formal (and in some places, it’s ok to even go without the jacket, or the tie!), they believe a hat is not required for davening.

    Others seem to interpret the halacha to dress nicely as meaning whatever the surrounding Jewish community deems formal and nice. Therefore, since some communities consider hats and jackets to be formal attire, they believe a hat and jacket are required for davening in that community.

    #1088655

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    GAW,

    It said “the” hat, and a fedora is the hat that the comments were about. And a fedora is exactly what Charlie always makes his silly comment about. And it is silly, because it was worn by Bernahrdt, who was a notorious cross-dresser and this is what she wore when cross dressing. It was meant as a men’s hat, not a woman’s. And it is clear that it is not begged isha, because men were wearing them and not women (Unless they are cross dressing)long before the fedora became the most popular hat style by bnei yeshivos.

    Now that we addressed your and Charlie’s ridiculous claims about begged isha, let’s ask why you are ok with the pilleus cornutus, which Jews were often made to wear in public so that they would be identified as Jews. Like the yellow stars the Nazis made Jews wear.

    If you were honest, you would own up and say what your real issue is with a Fedora. We all know that it has nothing to do with begged isha.

    Last, it is very nice of you to deny me stating my feelings in a comment section. Yet you have the temerity to call MY comment gratuitous?

    #1088656

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    ..only Roshe Yeshivos wore them..

    suffice ANY old photo to contradict that

    ..even R’ Nosson Wachtfogel zt”l didn’t wear a black hat..

    Exactly the color of hat? Not sure. But he most certainly did wear one, one that suit him right. One that lent him his dignified look.

    Color of hat back then was different than that of now. And MOST bochurim DID wear a hat.

    I don’t know who this R’ Aaron Rakeffet is, but if he says that “there was no Daas Torah, you could argue with them”, then I could most certainly do the same to him.

    “Chasidim conquered America” – Oh sure, because now it’s the norm for litveshe Bochurim to dress the same. Oh!! A major chasidic victory. Imagine talmedai haGra crying in despair…

    OH!! In Europe, in the famous great established Yeshivos of yore, there was no Daas Torah. ???? ??????. The Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbanim, Dayanim.. no Daas Torah.

    Of course there was a mechutzaf here and there, one who stood up brazenly, like Korach and Co. Were talking here about us Torah Jews, ????? ??????, WE held our Gedolim in the heighest reverence.

    Now of course, for some reason, Chassidishe Rebbes were held in reverence by their (and other) communities more so, it does not in any way mean that Litveshe Gedolim were not held in esteem, reverence. Actually I seem to recall something about ???? ??? ????? ????. No, not a casual remark. It’s for real. Like all other ????? ??”?.

    #1088657

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Last, it is very nice of you to deny me stating my feelings in a comment section. Yet you have the temerity to call MY comment gratuitous?

    You have no idea if I daven in an Agudah or OO shul. Sorry, you can feel how you want, but not make assumptions about me (who as far as you know, attends Mass every week religiously).

    I’m bringing up a Fedora because of the claim that it is the “Mesorah” to wear one, over other types of hats that Jews wore over the ages (yes, including those that the Goyim made us wear). How would you feel if someone wore either a:

    1: Cowboy hat

    2: Pork pie hat

    3: Football helmet

    4: Baseball cap

    5: Beanie

    6: Skullcap

    7: Skicap

    8: Homburg

    to davening? (All of which are “hats”)? Would you think all of those to be “respectful”? Or is your “thinking” originating from your Yeshiva?

    P.S. Who says I don’t wear a Fedora?

    P.P.S. My real issue with a Fedora? Is that people claim it is Halacha. If you want to treat it as a social construct that identifies the group, similar to a Spodik, Kol HaKavod. If you want to claim it is Shulchan Aruch (or Mishnah Berurah, or even a minhag of Yidden), then I’ll fight you tooth and nail.

    #1088658

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    1) I make no assumptions that you go to any shul at all.

    2) I guess we can let the others here determine if you changed your whole thesis here.

    3) You were the first one to bring up a Fedorah at all in this thread. No one mentioned a mesorah for a Fedora except perhaps you. You stared with Charlie’s silly and mistaken comment about begged isha.

    4) Nowhere in my first comment did I mention what type of hat I think it’d respectful to wear. It could be a biber hut or a chulent tup or another up hat. I never referred to what type of hat to wear to shul. My sole diyuk was relating to the first section where “the hat” was referring back to your comment. But I made no mention of what type of hat to wear.

    5) You were pretty specific on the pilleus corunutus. To the exclusion of anything other than a skullcap.

    6) I did not say whether you do or don’t wear a Fedora (even though it would be quite hypocritical considering the statement you made), but you do admit to my observation that you have an issue with a fedora. You say why, but that is your extrapolation. Made solely by you.

    #1088659

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Nisht – fair enough. I was responding to hakohen’s assertion that a hat is Mesorah or “the right thing”. There is no such Mesorah, and certainly not for hats as worn today by yeshiva bochrim.

    Further than that, if you would agree that there are head coverings that are respectful for davening other than a black fedora (which it seems you do), and that it is not a requirement for davening, I’ll take that and leave it alone.

    P.S. for certain I was going overboard on the fedora point, but was doing so to show that Moshe Rabbainu did not come off Har Sinai with one. How a beged becomes or changes from a beged Ish to Isha or vice versa should be for a different thread.

    #1088660

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    little froggie, my response was to a post by old man saying a BLACK hat might be the only respectful way of dressing. He didn’t say any hat, he said a BLACK hat.

    R’ Rakeffet’s point of chassidim “conquering” America has more merit than you think. Many things that the yeshivish world does today come from Chassidim. Separate seating at weddings? That’s from chassidim. It didn’t exist 50 years ago outside of chassidish circles. The extreme separation of genders? That’s from chassidim, and they continue to separate them further.

    His point of Daas Torah didn’t mean that people didn’t respect Rabbonim. He meant that people didn’t fear to question them. Not by acting out against what they said. If a Rav gave a psak that they didn’t understand, they would argue in learning! Nowadays, if someone dares to ask a question on a psak from a major posek, the response is usually, “Who are you to argue on Rav Ploni???” There was no blind following, nor should there be!

    #1088661

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    New form of strawman daas Torah, DaMoshe?

    #1088662

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    I’m bringing up a Fedora because of the claim that it is the “Mesorah” to wear one, over other types of hats that Jews wore over the ages (yes, including those that the Goyim made us wear).

    Maybe hakohen53’s post was edited before I read it, but I did not see where he claimed that there was a mesora for wearing a fedora, or any specific style or color. He just said a hat. The first mention of a fedora in this thread that I read was DaMoshe’s, and the second was yours.

    #1088663

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    DaMoshe,

    little froggie, my response was to a post by old man saying a BLACK hat might be the only respectful way of dressing. He didn’t say any hat, he said a BLACK hat.

    I think you can relax about old man’s position. As he stated in his first post, he is in favor of this alleged trend to stop wearing hats. His statement about black hats was a polemical assessment of what he perceived to be his opponents’ position.

    If you read through the thread carefully, the OP, hakohen53, and Little Froggie did not write anything about colors or styles.

    #1088664

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    hakohen53,

    Until JFK decided to appear at his inauguration without a hat, that was what everyone wore.

    I have heard this before, but I don’t think JFK had anything to do with US clothing styles moving away from hats. I don’t know the reason, but if I were to guess, I would say it had to do with cars becoming ubiquitous.

    #1088665

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DaasYochid, not sure what you mean.

    #1088666

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avram, I don’t think anyone has said that a hat needs to be a fedora or black l’halachah. That is constantly used as a straw man (straw hat?) argument.

    DaMoshe, the “Daas Torah” debate has nothing to do with discussing halachah even if taking a theoretical opposing position to a gadol.

    #1088667

    Jewish Thinker
    Participant

    DaMoshe- Where can I find those two interviews from Rabbi Rakeffet, and Rabbi Tendler tz”l?

    #1088668

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So after all that misunderstanding that y’all agree that a skicap, football helmet, or baseball cap is sufficient (sorry to everyone, my bad), let’s get back to my original post on this thread…

    Someone who used to present himself properly for his audience with ??? ???? ??????,

    Unwarranted assumption. Please prove the assumption before continuing with your conclusion. 🙂

    DaMoshe – I agree with Daas Yochid that you are harping the wrong point. Halacha continues to be debated, even when a “Gadol” says something. It is more the “Meta-Halacha” (to use a scholarly term) where hashkafic points are considered (and yes, there are those who will follow their Rebbe blindly) that is the Chassidic approach, but you do not see it with the working Yeshivish Olam (as opposed to Kollel types), who just mostly ignore it. There are many examples as such within the past five years.

    #1088669

    old man
    Participant

    Some clarifications:

    I am in favor of abandoning the black hat-jacket form of dress. I am not naive, it will not happen, but that’s my position.

    The color of the fedora is academic, we all know that virtually all litvish yeshiva boys wear some variation of a black fedora.

    My question about clean attire raised support, with no one saying that clean fedora-jacket is only optional and not mandatory.

    I have seen many thousands of yeshiva boys, like most of you out there. Ponovitch, Mir, Lakewood, Chaim Berlin, Telz, Brisk, and others. I have been in countless small yeshivishe minyanim and batei medrash. Virtually no one is careful about a clean and properly shaped hat, jacket and matching (clean) pants.

    My conclusion is that demanding a fedora and jacket because it is the most respectful of attire, and less than that is “a step down” , lies in direct contradiction to what is actually practiced in the veldt. I say forget the uniform, just dress neatly.

    #1088670

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    y’all agree that a skicap, football helmet, or baseball cap is sufficient

    Or, just use a brown paper bag, or drape a towel over your head.

    Old man, are you OCD, or do you think we should wear Shabbos clothing during the week? I’ve been in most of those places, and for the most part, yeshivaleit dress pretty cleanly from my perspective.

    Sure, there’s the occasional shlump, but it’s nowhere near a majority.

    #1088671

    Joseph
    Participant

    Old man, are you OCD

    old man is simply bigoted against non-mo. Everything else is a symptom of that.

    #1088672

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    So after all that misunderstanding that y’all agree that a skicap, football helmet, or baseball cap is sufficient

    Not quite.

    1. There is a concept in halacha of dressing nicely for davening.

    2. In some communities, a hat and jacket are considered part of the requirement for dressing nicely for davening.

    3. This does not mean that every hat and every jacket fulfill 1. As old man has repeatedly pointed out, a nice hat and jacket that are dirty do not fulfill 1. I would think that extremely casual or strange hats might also fail to fulfill 1.

    #1088673

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    old man,

    Virtually no one is careful about a clean and properly shaped hat, jacket and matching (clean) pants.

    Ok, so what makes matching pants any more reasonable in the definition of dressing nicely for davening than a hat and jacket?

    #1088674

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Joseph, see my new thread.

    #1088675

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    2. In some communities, a hat and jacket are considered part of the requirement for dressing nicely for davening.

    So as not to make the same mistake, what type of hat (and jacket) do you mean?

    Or, just use a brown paper bag, or drape a towel over your head.

    What is wrong with a Fez or a turban? If you drape a towel over your head, is it then a tallis?

    #1088676

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    old man is simply bigoted against non-mo. Everything else is a symptom of that.

    while you may be right that some comments from some people are motivated by certain biases, it is highly unfortunate that you and others use that excuse to write off everything they say as untrue. It would help for you to take responsibility to some of the accuracy of the comments, or at least some of the behaviors that make people feel that way.

    #1088677

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    gavra_at_work,

    So as not to make the same mistake, what type of hat (and jacket) do you mean?

    In my neighborhood, a cat-in-the-hat style hat, and a plaid jacket with a water squirting flower on the outside pocket. On Shabbos, same thing, but lose the flower. There is a growing subculture that favors big, yellow hats like Curious George’s friend wears. Other communities might be different.

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