Have some respect, please!

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  • #614287

    catch yourself
    Participant

    You might not like or agree with a specific elected official, on the basis of policy, personality or any other consideration.

    Nevertheless, you are not permitted to speak disrespectfully of that person. You may not like the fact that a certain individual holds office, but at the very least, his office demands respect. The higher and more important his office, the more this is so.

    I do not refer here to the issue of ????? ???, nor to practical considerations of political relations (although these are important to think of in this context). I refer simply to a value system which follows the dictates of the Torah.

    The time has come for the Torah community to eschew all derogatory references to government officials and political figures as anathema to the ideology set forth in the Torah.

    Even ??? ???? was commanded by ???”? to speak respectfully to ????.

    Just saying.

    #1043861

    Joseph
    Participant

    How much respect should we give Elliot Spitzer and Anthony Weiner?

    #1043862

    catch yourself
    Participant

    Let us examine that in light of what the Torah says, instead of using our own emotions to determine what is right or wrong.

    We are fully aware of the fact that many public figures are thoroughly immoral people.

    It is doubtful, however, that any of them are much worse than ????. The ?????? are replete with records of his deplorable depravity. He was also the leader of the nation which is repeatedly referred to in the Torah as the most immoral nation on Earth.

    Nevertheless, as a head of state, he was to be addressed with respect. This is not to say that he should be portrayed to our youth as a role model; it simply means that we are not to speak of him in a deprecating manner.

    As an aside, you do not do your children a favor when you inculcate them with hatred, racism and bigotry. This is true whether you intend to do so or not. The wanton and unabashed use of words with racial overtones teaches your children to be disrespectful and callous to the sensitivities of other people. Surely, this is not the character which you would like to cultivate in your sons and daughters…?

    #1043863

    showjoe
    Participant

    catch yourself: “Nevertheless, as a head of state, he was to be addressed with respect.”

    an absolute king is different than a president.

    also, from the way i see it, to disrespect a king back in ????s day was a much bigger disrespect and severe than it is now. it could even be looked at as treson and rebellion. now, insulting an offical is a common event, and dosnt really insult the official.

    as for your racist point, i completely agree. i do not think the color of ones skin matters when pertaining to such important matters such as running the country.

    #1043864

    Randomex
    Member

    showjoe:

    “also, from the way i see it, to disrespect a king back in ????’s day was a much bigger disrespect and severe than it is now.”

    Not in the Torah’s eyes. The Torah’s views do not change.

    (I don’t know how the Torah sees unqualified rulers or those who seized power and do not rule by the will of the people.)

    catch yourself:

    Nevertheless, you are not permitted to speak disrespectfully of that person. You may not like the fact that a certain individual holds office, but at the very least, his office demands respect. The higher and more important his office, the more this is so.[…]

    The time has come for the Torah community to eschew all derogatory references to government officials and political figures as anathema to the ideology set forth in the Torah.

    A: Source, please (I’ll deal with Pharaoh below).

    B: Assuming you have a source, what are the necessary levels of respect you are referring to, and which offices demand them?

    Even ??? ???? was commanded by ???”? to speak respectfully to ????. (Emphasis added.)

    Speaking to someone is different than speaking about them.

    That someone was “to be addressed with respect” does not mean, or even imply, that “we are not to speak of him in a deprecating manner”.

    As an aside, you do not do your children a favor when you inculcate them with hatred, racism and bigotry.

    I think that’s important enough to have its own thread. (Of course, you’re assuming the adults know that their attitudes

    comprise unjustified hatred, racism, and bigotry…)

    #1043865

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    lets compare and contrast the terrorist attack between a lone (albiet improtant) CANADIAN citizen (i’m not knocking canada just comparing)

    dBut it emphasizes the degree to which we have to remain vigilant when it comes to dealing with these kinds of acts of senseless violence or terrorism. That when it comes to dealing with terrorist activity that Canada and the United States has to be entirely in sync.

    whereas over here when there are four AMERICAN citizens his statement is

    At this sensitive moment in Jerusalem, it is all the more important for Israeli and Palestinian leaders and ordinary citizens to work cooperatively together to lower tensions, reject violence, and seek a path forward towards peace.

    basically when the teroorism is from isis they have to be in sync in fighting it, whereas when it comes from hamas we have to work towards peace

    that doesnt get you agitated?

    additionally, how do you know those that don’t give him respect are from the US? maybe they moved to israel or live in any other country

    #1043866

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Part of our political system is that the people have to bash political leaders.

    #1043867

    showjoe
    Participant

    in this weeks parsha, yitzchok tells avimelech,: “why have you come to me? you hate me, and drove me away from you!” i am not sure if this is a valid comparison, but avimelech was definitely at one point yitzchoks king.

    #1043868

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Berachos 9b:

    ??”? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ???”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???”?

    Berachos 58a:

    ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???????? ?”? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???’ ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????

    Levush Orach Chaim 224:8:

    ?? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? [??] ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ????

    Radvaz 1:296:

    ???? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ??????

    ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??”? ????? ?? ?”? ????? ?”? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????… ??”? ??? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??”? ??”? ?”? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ???’ ??? ?? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????”? ??? ??? ???? ??”? ?????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?”? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??”? ???? ???????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ??? ???? ???”? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???”? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?”? ????’ ??????’ ???? ??? ????’ ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????”? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???????? ????? ????? ??? ???’ ?”? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??”? ?????

    #1043869

    Could someone post the gemorrah in bava basra where baca ben buta is defending the kings honor, even though it is the wicked hordos who killed the chachomim and poked out his eyes?

    #1043870

    Randomex
    Member

    PAA:

    As far as I can tell, your post’s practical implications are that I should not make a certain bracha upon seeing the President of the United States or any member of the US’s judicial system.

    It does not, however, tell me anything about the respect the Torah requires me to demonstrate (if any) for an official of a Western democratic government, whether in their presence or not.

    #1043871

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Randomex:

    The point of my post was to demonstrate that there is such a thing as kavod for non-Jewish kings. However, it is also to show that it is significantly less than for Jewish Kings. The point of the Radvaz was to apply it even to officials who are not kings. His last part can arguably be applied to a President.

    R’ Moshe Shternbuch (Teshuvos V’hanhagos 2:139) writes:

    ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ???’ ?????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?”? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? (??”? ?”? ?”?) ???? ????????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????”? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??

    ??? ??????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??”? ?????? ???? ?????

    ??”? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???????

    ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???

    #1043872

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    And R’ Ovadia Yosef (Yechaveh Da’at 2:28) writes:

    ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????”? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ???”? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?’ (???? ??) ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???, ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? (?? ??:) ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? (????? ??? ??? ?) ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???”? ??????? ????? (???? ??) ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???”? ???? ????? ?”? (???? ??) ?”? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???”? ??? ???? (??? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??”?) ??”?

    ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???”? ???? ???? (???? ?) ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ???????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???

    ?????? ??? ??? ????? ?????? (?? ?? ?”?) ??? ??? ?????? ??”? ??? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???”? ?????? ???? (???? ??) ??? ??? ???”? ????? ???? ???? (??? ???? ???? ???? ??) ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? (???? ???) ??????? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????”? ??”? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????”? ????? ???? (???? ??? ??? ?) ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? (???? ??) ???? ????? ???”? ???? ???? (??) ???? ????? ?? ???? ????”? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?? ????? (????? ? ??? ??) ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ???”? ??? ??? ?”? (???? ?) ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??????

    ??? ?????? ?? ???? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ???”? ??? ????? (???? ???) ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? (???) ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? (??:) ??????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?”? ??? ??? ??? ????”? ????? ???? ??? ???? (???? ?? ?”? ??) ??? ??? ???”? ??? ????? ????’? (???? ??) ????? ??? ????? (???? ??? ??”?) ???? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???????? (???) ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???”? ??? ????? ??? ? (???? ??) ??? ??? ???”? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????

    #1043873

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    It does not, however, tell me anything about the respect the Torah requires me to demonstrate (if any) for an official of a Western democratic government, whether in their presence or not.

    Here is a source which directly discusses such respect:

    Shu”t Divrei Chaim Yoreh Deiah 1:30:

    ?? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?”? ???? ?????? ?? ?????

    ???????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???????

    ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ?????

    ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??

    ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ????? ????? ???????

    ???? ??? ????? ??????? ??”? ???? ?????? ?”? ??? ???????? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?’ ???? ??’ ????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???????

    #1043874

    oomis
    Participant

    FTR, though he may believe differently, the president of the USA is NOT a king. He is an elected official of this country, and unlike a king, IS ANSWERABLE to the people of this nation who put him in that position of leadership.

    #1043875

    charliehall
    Participant

    “whereas over here when there are four AMERICAN citizens his statement is”

    This is an example of the venal deceitful vitriol that President Obama gets from his political opponents. What he actually said was the following:

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/11/18/statement-president-attack-jerusalem

    The reason to quote an excerpt out of context is clearly to defame President Obama and to cause us to thing more poorly of him. I think there may be some d’oraita violations here.

    #1043876

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The reason to quote an excerpt out of context is clearly to defame President Obama and to cause us to thing more poorly of him. I think there may be some d’oraita violations here.

    It is not one bit better in that context.

    The sheer chutzpah that man has. Read my lips: the violence is from the Palestinian side. All of it with very rare exceptions (the kid this summer).

    And exactly what d’oraisa would you be talking about? I can’t think of any.

    (Also when you get a chance you should bump your thread about Obama deporting all the illegals as hard as he can.)

    #1043877

    charliehall
    Participant

    “It is not one bit better in that context.”

    Why not? The out of context excerpt was designed to deceive people into thinking that Obama didn’t condemn the murders. And he didn’t blame Israel for anything.

    I know that you hate Obama. That doesn’t give you a heter to lie about what he says.

    “about Obama deporting all the illegals as hard as he can”

    He *has* deported more illegals than any President ever. And he has also prosecuted more illegals than any President ever. What he isn’t is the first President to suspend deportations by executive action — both Reagan and Bush 41 did that, too. Obama has even tried unsuccessfully to force local law enforcement officials to check the immigration status of people they arrest. But you won’t hear any of this on Faux News.

    #1043878

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    ah charlie,

    thank you for trying to put your thoughts in my mind.

    i never said this is all he said (he actually would never talk that short, he loves to hear himself speak (as opposed to the voters “i hear you”)

    what i was trying to convey, which was lost to you, was that when a canadian (another country) gets killed, we have to deafeat isis (who hes fighting) whereas when 3 American citizens get killed israel has to make peace

    in other words terrorism is only worth fighting for when its against America

    #1043879

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    addutuinally,

    i have heard that bush and reagan did amnesty laws however IT WAS WITH THE APPROVAL OF CONGRESS

    some people just dont get it

    #1043880

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    oomis,

    i was saying thats obamas logic

    i dont subscribe to it obviously

    #1043881

    oomis
    Participant

    in other words terrorism is only worth fighting for when its against America”

    But my problem here is that several of the Kedoshim WERE American. Daniel Pearl was a Jew, too. What did our nation do when HE was beheaded?

    Now to address charliehall: I respect your right to believe as you wish and even to defend the honor of Obama, because this is a free nation. But I am honestly surprised and dismayed when time after time, ANYONE, and especially any frum Jew still does so. Obama has been unbelievably contemptuous of Israel, of its leadership, of its people, and of its extremely painful recent history (based on his inability to talk plainly about the terrorists). His arrogance knows no bounds. One could argue that the people who surround him, his advisors and speech writers, are the real ones at fault, but that was Achashverosh’s problem, too. Obama has too many Haman’s at his ear, and he himself is CLEARLY no Jew-lover.

    He is Barak HUSSEIN Obama, and this is how he identifies first and foremost. Whatever he said that “sounded” like he was speaking out for Israel, did not address the issue in any way. His ONLY words should have been, “We condemn in the strongest terms possible, the butchering of innocent Jews, especially while in the midst of their prayers! There can be no moral justification for attacking rabbis wrapped in their prayer shawls. No ideology can allow such barbarism!” Instead he called for “both sides” to act to lower tensions. There would be no tensions whatsoever if these savages would stop attacking Jews. And anyone watching them dancing in the streets in celebration, holding up axes and guns, should be nauseated. AND OUTRAGED!

    Someone made the really stupid comment somewhere that there is some type of equivalence between Har Nof and the actions of Boruch Goldstein, who also killed Arabs amidst their prayers. He should not have done what he did. The BIG difference however is, the Shul of Har Nof, was not an armory with a hidden cache of weaponry to be used to attack and kill Arabs without provocation. Unless I am very much mistaken (known to happen from time to time), there was a veritable arsenal that was discovered hidden in that Arab place of worship, (because who would expect someone to hide such things in a holy place?).

    A president probably has to walk a fine line, but this is something that OUR president should have condemned in the harshest language possible, as well as any other world leaders who likewise were pretty silent because, “It’s only Jews.” I cannot wait for Obama to be permanently out of office. it is very clar where his allegiance lies, and it is neither with Israel NOR the USA, for that matter.

    #1043882

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yah, charlie, you just keep on with it. I only hope your medical research is more rigorous than your political research.

    #1043883

    TheGoq
    Participant

    So what if he deports them all they have to do is cross the sieve known as the southern border and they are back in, an illegal who was deported came back and killed two California Policemen.

    #1043884

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    ur right goq,

    and thats why we need border security

    #1043885

    oomis
    Participant

    The Jewish immigrants who came to the USA during the early 1900s, did so in order to make a better life for themselves. Apparently, so do the illegals. And there the comparison stops cold.

    My ancestors did not go on Welfare, they learned to speak English without expecting the public school system to educate their children in their own language(s). They immediately took any jobs they could, often losing work as of Friday and having to start all over again. There was no unemployment insurance, no free medical care, no NOTHING for them. They not only survived, they thrived.

    They were in a country that did not want them, simply because they were Jews. But they persevered and made something of themselves. They were religious, morally upright, hard-working family people, whose children excelled in school and went on to a better life for the most part.

    They did not rob, mug, murder, assault people in order to get money to buy drugs. They did not carry drugs on their person from one country to another in order to sell them to others. Were there exceptions? No doubt. But the rule was that parents expected the highest achievement from their children, and did not teach them to feel entitled on someone else’s back. And therein lies the very big difference.

    #1043886

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What’s my grandparents have to do with it? We aren’t allowed to have laws just because my great great grandparents were immigrants?

    And suppose they did sneak in–so now we should just declare the country a free for all?

    Only obama could maake such an argument, and only a liberal could believe it.

    #1043887

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ???? ???? ?? ????

    #1043888

    oomis
    Participant

    Haleivi, when someone ACTS as a nasi, then we follow that klal. But when he acts as a dictator who is accountable to no one but the man in the mirror, a law unto himself, then I feel a different klal is in order – the one quoted by Rabbi Akiva. I don’t feel any great friendship emanating from our nasi.

    #1043889

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oomis, I guess I can’t blame you for not realizing it but I was actually referring to the Gemara that only when the Nasi does Maaseh Amcha are we commanded Lo Sa’or.

    Sure w are Mechuyav to honor the kingdom. But all the above references have nothing to do with privately disparaging of the king. The Tanna in Bava Basra who did not want to condemn Hurdus said that he was afraid to do so.

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