Have the Evangelicals Gone too Far?

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  • #2104487
    1
    Participant

    The SC decision to strike down Roe is a political disaster to the Right. For a while, all the negative news were about the Dems. Most non-Jews who claim to be independent identify as pro-choice, for better or worse. Polls have it that despite Biden negative approval, dems are favored in the congressional ballot right now. It could be with gerrymandering the dems take the House but now the Right made themselves a target. This can be attributed to evangelicals, who have a large say in conservative policy and who mainly push for abortion restrictions at the state and federal level and gun rights, two things which mainstream America generally do not share the same views on. I think the party needs to move to more moderate types. In VT and NH they have republican governors and they generally have favorable polls, yet they almost always vote Democrat in Federal elections. Can the eastern republicans come back? I know evangelicals donate a lot of support to Israel but at this point are they making things bad for US politics? Striking down Roe is not going to stop abortions. There were underground abortion clinics in New York in the 1960s. In some states they don’t allow an abortion in case if the fetus was conceived through abuse. If anything they should have waited until after the midterms to do this.

    #2104667

    Evangelicals are the Devil’s soldiers

    #2104668
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Let us remember that the Evangelicals are much worse for the Jewish people than we think.

    Although they advocate for the PHYSICAL safety of the Jews, what about spiritual safety?

    Evangelical Christians believe in and support evangelizing to Jews and converting them to Christianity. Jews for Jesus, which is funded by the evangelicals, has an annual budget of 15 million dollars!

    Remember, millions of Jews have accepted death instead of accepting Christianity. If conversion is worse than death, then people who aim to convert are worse than Nazis. It doesn’t make a difference if they support Israel or not.

    #2104680
    ujm
    Participant

    The OP has it completely backwards on multiple topics:

    1. Striking down Roe was an excellent outcome. Morally, for sure, but politically too.

    2. As a result of Roe being overturned, a majority of states will restrict abortions. As a result, there will be less abortions than had Roe been upheld.

    3. The right will come out stronger in voting blocs as a result of Roe being overturned.

    4. Most Americans and most independents favor placing restrictions against abortions.

    5. The gerrymandering that took place in 2021, after the recent 2020 census, has strongly favored Republicans, and not Democrats, overall nationally.

    #2104682
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    לב שרים ומלכים ביד ה׳

    I wouldn’t be surprised if this applies to the Supreme Court

    #2105106
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When the Non-Jews are too religious, it is dangerous to the Jews. Live and let live.

    #2105112
    ujm
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, and in converse, when Jews aren’t religious enough, it is also dangerous for the Jews.

    #2105122
    akuperma
    Participant

    Goyim generally want to convert Jews. It is in their nature, whether they are Evangelicals, or Catholics, or Secularists (the list goes on) or whatever. Our continued existence is a refutation of all they hold dear. We are the oldest on-going culture in the world, and the fact that in our very long experience we haven’t “seen the light” is a problem for them. The answer is for Yidden to stick to Torah and Mitsvos, and trust that Ha-Shem will convince our neighbors to be non-violent and not too obnoxious.

    #2105123
    jackk
    Participant

    CA,

    The Posuk that is the source for this Inyan is Mishlei 21:1
    פַּלְגֵי־מַ֣יִם לֶב־מֶ֭לֶךְ בְּיַד־יְהוָ֑ה עַֽל־כׇּל־אֲשֶׁ֖ר יַחְפֹּ֣ץ יַטֶּֽנּו׃

    This Posuk might not be referring to judges and therefore judges might still have complete free will.
    But, as we all know, Hashem runs the world while allowing humans free will.

    #2105124
    akuperma
    Participant

    Out standard for judging goyim is based on halacha. The Evangelicals do most of the seven (or eight if you count having children) mitsvos. Secularists take pride in killing inconvenient babies and all sorts of sexual perversions, (and lets not ask about the fairness of their courts, or disbelief in the Creator, or dreaming up new sorts of avodah zarah to believe in). For the most, I find the Evangelicals to be fairly mentsch-like, and their weird belief in their mistranslations to be a bit amusing.

    #2105170

    >> When the Non-Jews are too religious, it is dangerous to the Jews.
    > in converse, when Jews aren’t religious enough,

    these 2 statements taken together is an actual quote from R Berl Wein.

    Still, this seem to be a real-life sad observation rather than an ideal. Otherwise, we would say that Chinese system of suppression of all religions is ideal, especially as it does not have many Jews.

    I would suggest cautiously support proper understanding of Hashem by non-Jews, still expecting bad things possibly happening. This happened, for example, when Protestants appeared in Germany and some Jews were optimistic about it.

    #2105202
    ujm
    Participant

    Whatever faults the evangelicals have, and they certainly have significant faults, the American left and the Democrats are far far worse by comparison. In all areas.

    #2105223
    jackk
    Participant

    ujm,

    The reason you believe that the democrats are far worse is because until now the evangelicals have not been able to establish their religion into law. They have just realized that with time and political pressure, they can control the SC and do away with laws that are against their religion.
    Just wait until their next moves.
    We already had this argument and I know that you are not concerned.

    #2105224
    Participant
    Participant

    The SC’s decision had nothing to do with Evangelicals. It had to do with the justices’ interpretation of the Constitution.

    #2105230
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Ignoring Yosef’s usual (unsubstantiated) rants, the evangelical’s “plan” for the role of yidden in the events leading to THEIR “zman moishiach” is not exactly something we should look forward to. Also, just as we have our own share of crazies on the left, the right wing Evangelical crazies are even more dangerous in terms of what they believe can be done by government to achieve what they view as “god’s plan”.

    #2105249

    note that this very specific question leads everyone to provide arguments that are fully explained by the writers’ political positions. Are you guys not bored simply repeating your beliefs?

    #2105265
    ujm
    Participant

    Jack, the evangelicals are not seeking to establish religion as national law. You’re reading too much DailyKos and watching too much MSNBC

    #2105264
    ujm
    Participant

    Have you discarded your beliefs about what we will do to the Amalekim in order so that the Goyim needn’t worry about us during zman Moshiach?

    #2105262
    ujm
    Participant

    I must wonder why the evangelicals beliefs of the second coming is of concern to “Gadolhadorah”. Is he concerned it will come to fruition?

    For those of us who have no concerns about a second coming, any one else’s beliefs of such nonsense poses no concerns.

    #2105263
    ujm
    Participant

    I must wonder why the evangelicals beliefs of the second coming is of concern to “Gadolhadorah”. Is he concerned it will come to fruition?

    For those of us who have no concerns about a second coming, any one else’s beliefs of such nonsense poses no concerns.

    #2105325
    jackk
    Participant

    ujm,

    You know that I don’t listen to either of those 2 media outlets.
    Nearly 25% of the US are evangelicals. Compared to about 2% of Jews.
    They have tremendous political clout.
    They are part of the political process and they vote.
    They are a major part of the republican party.
    They vote per their religion.

    They are the source behind the current membership of the SC.
    If the evangelicals/republicans hadn’t given Mitch the green light to pull all the unethical shtick to steal 2 SC nominees, and also the green light for the SC nominees to basically lie under oath in order to get elected and then to immediately overturn RvW, RvW would never have been overturn.

    #2105330
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Wow jackk! I never would have believed you were into so many conspiracy theories. What is going on with you? Is this a recent thing?

    #2105346
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @UJM, there is no reason to worry about there silly second coming beliefs. The problem is that this causes them to believe in the importance of missionizing to Jews, which is worse than physical death.

    At the same time, we do applaud their adherence to the sheva mitzvos, as the Rambam writes (הלכות מלכים פי”א ה”ד) that the purpose of Christianity and Islam was to prepare the אומות העולם for Moshiach through teaching them about G-d, the Bible, and the idea of G-d commanding us how to behave.
    At the same time, he writes, they have a completely warped version of religion, and “there is no greater stumbling block than this”, and when Moshiach comes they will come to realize how much they erred.

    #2105378
    jackk
    Participant

    Evangelicals are עובדי עבודה זרה מסתמא. They don’t get to choose which ones of the ז מצוות to keep.

    #2105606
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @jackk: Although there were arguments among the Rishonim, the overwhelming opinion of poskim is that Christianity is considered שיטוף, not עבודה זרה. Thus it is permissible for a goy but prohibited for a Yid.

    #2105610
    ujm
    Participant

    Menachem, doesn’t the Rambam pasken than Christianity is Avoda Zora for goyim?

    #2105611

    @Menachem Shmei
    first of all, most rishonim and the gemara holds it IS avoda zara for all – bferush. (any svara to be mchalek????????)
    Second, if the overwhelming shitas hold the world is flat – does that make it flat?

    the fact is that shituf is denying God ENTIRELY and is the SAME as ANY ancient avoda zara who viewed the god (sun, rain etc….) as manifestations of the supreme power.
    if god is a creation, then how do you know he exists – who created him? He must be the creator of all creation. if you think he is a creation – you are ENTIRLY DENYING the creator – exactly as ALL ancient avoda zaras.

    #2105614
    ujm
    Participant

    You also must account for that the church censored the seforim of the Rishonim/Achronim in Europe. What most of them held about Christianity is unwritten, as a result.

    #2105632

    Menachem, it seems that the majority thinks that it is avoda zara for goyim, and only minority that it is not. I once asked a co-author of a sefer on this topic about it – the book mentioned this kullah, the person said that this was his co-author’s chapter and he personally thinks it is AZ regardless.

    I personally think that this discussion needs to possibly distinguish between different religious groups and look at current positions that might be different than at the times of Rambam. Also, we probably should look more at actions of non-Jews as more indicative what they stand for, rather than their religious affiliation that might be just an accident of birth that they feel they need to pay lip service to (like Jefferson).

    #2105652
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Chaylev Halya
    Your statements and comparison are completely illogical and mocking halacha.

    Hashem prohibited us from serving avodah zorah, and He prohibited non-Jews as well. Who decides what is avodah zorah? Torah, and only Torah. Your comparison to flat earth makes absolutely no sense.

    The Rama (Shulchan Aruch OC end of siman קנו) rules halachically that Christianity is permissible for non-Jews since they were not prohibited from שיתוף and they partner their avodah zorah with שם שמים.
    (וראה הנסמן שם בגר”א ורעק”א ועוד)

    YOU don’t understand how this is different from all ancient avodah zarahs – so YOU should go learn what the difference is.
    Don’t proclaim that you know better than halachah because its ‘just like’ “if the overwhelming shitas hold the world is flat…”
    Allow halachah to dictate its own laws.

    P.S. There are others who disagree, but please allow this to remain a Halachic debate, with respectable poskim on either side. Don’t mix in your own ignorance.

    #2105720

    @Menachem Shmei
    Christanity is NOT a shituf – their guy is the ONLY god for them! he is the creator; meaning they dont believe in God at all. just because they use shem shamayim for their god – remeber “az huchal likro bshem havaya”.
    They claim to only believe in one god – not a shituf. meaning, that person is their ONLY god!

    #2105748
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Chaylev,

    I’m happy you know all there is about that religion and that you think there aren’t other opinions there

    #2105762
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tosfas says that they don’t do it as an a’z but following the custom of their fathers.

    #2105891
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Chaylev Halyah: Did I say that Christianity is shituf? Did I say that they use Shem Shamayim?

    No, I didn’t. I just quoted the Rema in Shulchan Aruch. There are others who disagree. See the explanation of Rav Ovadia Yosef who explains those who disagree with the Rema. Does your Rov rule like Rav Ovadia? OK. Does he rule like Rema? OK.

    Again, don’t mix your own ignorance into the discussion. This is not a shouting match between missionaries and yeshiva bochurim in the street outside yeshiva on Thursday night. We are discussing the various halachic opinions on the matter.

    No matter what, it is obvious that the evangelicals are wrong in their beliefs and especially wrong for trying to get Jews to follow their beliefs. At the same time, it is very good that they are strongly involved in the Sheva Mitzvos and making the world a better place according to the morals and values given by Hashem in His Torah. Even regarding the first of the Sheva Mitzvos, there are opinions that it is not so bad for them.

    When Moshiach comes, they will be the most ready (from the goyim) to accept him and realize that they were fooled by their forefathers about many religious ideas. (רמב”ם הלכות מלכים פי”א ה”‘ד)

    #2105894

    @Reb Eliezer
    with all due respect – that is not right to say.
    you are also only doing it as a custom of your fathers.
    and its not true at all. at least not today (maybe then).
    most of them came to this AZ themselves – they have a tayva for it – just like in the old days –
    IT WAS NEVER BATEL a total lie! dont tell me chazal say it was batel.
    with all due respect, it was never batel. AZ is just as much alive today as ever (obviously excluding the appx 35% of the world who is Muslim; [atheists 100% believe in AZ, they just dont worship it – they overpowered the gods of nature]).
    i dont know what chazal meant – but definitely not the simple explanation.

    #2105903

    @Menachem Shmei
    You are suffering from wishful thinking.
    When Moshiach comes – they will be the LAST to accept him because they will say he is the Anti-xist who will be killed by their messiah.
    in fact, i believe, they will NEVER accept the One G-D or Moshiach and will have to executed according to Halacha.

    #2105931
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    @Chaylev Halyah:
    Unfortunately, it seems that you never bothered to open up the Rambam which I mentioned two times. In general, if someone makes a statement and brings a reliable source for his statement, it pays to check up that source before answering back.

    Come to think of it, I should really be דן לכף זכות, maybe you looked up the censored version of the Rambam so you didn’t see what I was talking about.

    Let me be more clear: Open up an UNCENSORED version of רמב”ם הלכות מלכים פי”א ה”ד and read what he says. (once your at it, see also over there פי”ב ה”ה)

    If you don’t agree, you can write: “@Rambam: Using my poor and humble logic which Hashem has gifted me with, your words seem to be wishful thinking. Hashem, please give me the strength to understand the Rambam’s holy words.”

    P.S. The Rambam’s words are a bit too lengthy to post on the forum. But if you cannot find an uncensored version of the Rambam, let me know, and I can post the Rambam’s words here.

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