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I’ve had multiple posters tell me over the years that they changed their minds based on posts I’ve made. Regarding various issues.
I can’t think of anything offhand. This forum did more to develop and solidify opinions I had, sometimes having more to do with the style of argument (i.e. with or lacking good faith) than the actual argument.
One important thing I did become more aware of here is that people with agendas that define themselves rarely care too much about objective truth. Way too many people, including some whose conclusions I agree with, will accept tenuous claims because it creates a vacuous truth as their conclusion. So I feel this site involves more demonstration of how NOT to think than how to think.people come here to voice their opinion and argue, not to have their minds changed. Am K’shei Oref.
Yes I have. Initially I held that I could change minds through posts on this forum. I know have serious doubts in that position. Ultimately, I still hold hope that the posts don’t just influence those who respond, but those silent readers not posting. So I guess you never know.
Edit to add to my comment above, I’m intentionally not naming anyone when referring to people who don’t care for the truth. If you (any specific user, not just OP) think I might have had you in mind, you’re probably right. Really hard for black-and-white thinkers to acknowledge their biases by definition…
yeah i thought people were normal and now i dont anymore
flamingOTD should use these threads not to attempt to convince others of her dangerous and unrealistic feel good illusions
but rather to listen and be ready to acknowledge reality as it really is …
.
i find the format of CR to be incredibly frustrating for any real conversation, specifically the long delayed responses and the open table format where anyone who wants to interact is forced to interrupt a single linear thread of conversation, either getting ignored or undermining the original focus of the thread.
Yes. I used to think that anti-Zionists were normal, rational people.
Joseph and some others showed me that they aren’t.To The Group
I would say no, but I’ve gained a lot because the posters provide much useful information. My particular area of interest is Chabad and it was the Lubavichers who really educated me as to their unusual form of Judaism. I’m pretty skilled at being able to discern the truth and so I’m able to tell when people are speaking Emes. So, I’m grateful to yankel berel and several others who don’t look to bash, rather they simply offer their understanding of the facts.
Not at all
I knew the question sounded familiar
When I first encountered this forum, I thought it would be a useful resource on Jewish observance.
I’ve found that most of the posts are immature people saying absurd things. If ask a serious question about Judaism, I may get some intelligent replies, but I’ll also get replies in Hebrew which I can’t understand, because I’m a ba’al teshuvah who didn’t begin learning Hebrew until late in life.
And there will be useless replies such as “Ask your local orthodox Rabbi!”, which is like asking how to make cholent and being told “Read the recipe!”.
Before this forum, I thought the people who believe that modern yeshiva way of life is the only appropriate are very idealistic. In this forum, I unfortunately discovered that they are mostly ignorant and raised on political slogans. It was a sad thing to learn.
‘Am happy to enlighten AAQ here …
99 % of “people who believe that modern yeshiva way of life is the only appropriate” do not write on YVN …..
your observation , even if …..
even if correct …..
is applicable to only 1 % of “people who believe that modern yeshiva way of life is the only appropriate” ….
so please rest assured — your ‘sadness’ is misplaced …
you can revert to being happy ….. as before ….
.
.it sounds like you are getting the correct message: don’t get torah from strangers online
yankel, you are correct, this is only 1% if so. But the value of this forum is that people can actually express themselves and I think it is very valuable. In person, most people will not express themselves this way, and it would be probably considered anti-social. So, yes, individual posters may have some agenda and middos, but overall, we are hearing here what other groups are talking about when others do not see them. This should be useful for people from different groups to see other perspectives.
For this particular observation, I heard multiple posters over several years. I presume whatever arguments are going in their communities where already posted. When I got to this forum, I was first uncomfortable that “yeshiva world” seemed to encompass only certain views, while others were rejected even when they were based on views of Talmidei chachomim. This may be getting worse, by the way. I recently picked up a semi-annual Torah ontology from 1990s. It has articles from several YU-affiliated rabbis and also from Ner Isroel. And it has a letter from a son of R Yaakov Kamenetsky commenting on one of the previous articles with a dvar Torah from his father.
FlamingOTD:
No offense intended, but with all due respect,
people do not listen to you because
you are wrong, wrong and WRONG!!You do NOT know what you are talking about.
Your “facts” are distorted and incomplete.
You CANNOT get the truth about Israel or Islam
from the Mainstream News Media (MSM).__________________________________________
Eric Starkman (a Los Angeles-based writer and journalist) said:“The mainstream media has abandoned all pretense of objectivity.
Whereas in the past journalists viewed themselves as
unbiased chroniclers of the news, their focus today is
on manufacturing it and dominating the ensuing conversations.A journalist’s influence today isn’t determined by the quality
or accuracy of their reporting, but rather the size of their
Twitter following and the frequency of their television appearances.”SOURCE: “Why Crown Heights Hate Crimes Aren’t Newsworthy”
by Eric Starkman, 2019 February 17, in The Algemeiner__________________________________________
Indeed, Palestinians rarely make an appearance in The [Washington] Post,
unless it’s to serve as the perennial victim — and this too
is contingent on portraying Israel, and ONLY Israel, as the oppressor.When Palestinians suffer at the hands of their [own] leaders,
The [Washington] Post is nowhere to be found.”SOURCE: article by Sean Durns, 2019 March 6 www dot algemeiner dot com
“The Media Only Cares about Palestinians If Israel Can Be Blamed”__________________________________________
Mr. Stephen M. Flatow said:“Despite the constant refrain from the J Street and the international
news media about the so-called ‘Israeli occupation of the Palestinians,’
the reality is that 98 percent [98%] of the Palestinian Arabs live under Palestinian rule.”SOURCE: “Looking for Jews to kill” by Stephen M. Flatow, 2019 March 6, www JNS org
To DovidBT
I consider myself intelligent and would like you to challenge me with one of your questions. I’m a quasi-BT. I went to yeshiva growing up, but I paid no attention. I didn’t find myself religiously until I reached my 30’s.
it sounds like you are getting the correct message: don’t get torah from strangers online , for sure not from people like somejew …
.A couple of days ago, I posted replies to the people who replied to my post above. They haven’t appeared, probably because of the low quality WordPress addon used here, or a moderator’s decision. I’m not going to bother trying to repost them.
Yes,
I used to be a mitnagid and now and Chassid tolerant.
Thank you JosephDovid: Which WordPress addon here is of low quality?
To DovidBT
That’s your decision. Far be it from me to tell you what to do.
There we go folks; Ex-CTLawyer is all the proof we need that people do change their minds here.
thanks . the more those guys post , the more people get turned off …
the kanna’i side has good and valid points and sources …
but not when you read their posts ….
.
.Which WordPress addon here is of low quality?
This discussion group / forum. Isn’t that obvious?
“Yes,
I used to be a mitnagid and now and Chassid tolerant.
Thank you Joseph“Still waiting for you to be a pro-trumper
😜
Not at all. It actually reenforced my opinion that people learn Torah, but don’t internalize it. People on this forum are clueless regarding basic tenants of the Torah. I have concluded that a majority of the yeshiva world are giligulim of the Dor Hamidbar. They follow their Rebbe’s and Rosh Yeshivous over anything that is explicit stated in the Torah, just like the Dor Hamidbar.
Just imagine, Moshe Rabaynu was described as an Ish Mitzri in the Torah. Do you think any of the so called Gedolim would follow him today or would they argue he looks like a Daati Leumi Rabbi? That’s probably what the Merolglim said to convince Klal Yisroel to reject Eretz Yisroel! Nothing changed, just the hats and yarmulka.
@Coffee
Don’t hold your breath. I get up from Shabbos snd check the news and find out he had invaded Venezuela, abducted the president and First Lady and s as noun ex we are taking over the oil supply and will sell it off around the world,
How much of that money will live the pockets B of the Trump family and associates,
If I hear one more Jew say ‘he’s good for Israel’ I will vomit. We elect a President of the USA, not an advocate for the Netanyahu regime,CTL, now you’ll be defending another dictator just so that you can stick it to Trump … It is a sad feature of democracies that every event has to be approved or condemned based on electoral politics. Some defended soviets to stick it to Nixon and Reagan …. Maybe for a short period post 9/11, there was a consensus supporting Pres Bush. Both in US and in Israel, and probably same in Europe, democratic government are not able to fight clearly evil forces because there is always someone angllng to make a partisan point about it. We make ourselves weaker and give hope to reshaim that they can manipulate us to achieve their goals.
Scary. The only deviance from ‘never changed my mind’ is ‘now I’m even more right’.
Over the years, there were many enlightening conversations from which I learned particular things. Obviously, I didnt pick up a new Hashkafa. But I did gain insight into some other Hashkafos.
@Ex-CTLawyer
You’ve made it clear that your choice for the U.S. President is not who’s best for the U.S. or Israel, but rather who’s best for your own bank account.@AAQ
I am not defending another dictator or anyone to stick ig to Trump.
My disdain for Trump goes back
More than 40 years and has nothing to do with politics. It stems from personal business dealings.@DovidBT
My choice for President is who I think is best for the USA and its residents, not my personal bank account.
I have voted for candidates From both major parties over the years.
B”H at this stage of life, I can live on what I have and don’t need a President to expand my wealth. Hashem determines my lot, not the occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C.Which dictator do you think I am defending?
I certainly am not pro-Maduro but don’t support the military action taken that in my legal understanding violated the War Powers Act“I get up from Shabbos snd check the news and find out he had invaded Venezuela, abducted the president and First Lady“
Ex-ctl,
Interesting, it isnt the first time it has happened to a dictator by a president, were you just as upset then? Additionally, Biden offered $25 million for his arrest, so basically you wanted it done, just by someone else?
@Coffee
I was in Santiago Chile when Nixon and Company took out President Allende. I place no credibility in the report of his suicide later in the Day. We ended up with Pinochet running the country which was worse.I objected to the Biden administration bounty on Maduro, but Biden did not use US troops to invade a sovereign country, a member of the OAS as Trump
Just did.
I was not happy when we forced Noriega out in Panama, either. I don’t this the US should determine the chief executive of other countries.ExCTL > . It stems from personal business dealings.
This is so great! There are so many people who call Trump names even when he is doing good things – and they are doing it for no reason at all and there is so far no medicine to heal them. And he you are – having a personal grudge. Understandable. I feel much better than you are not afflicted with TDS virus.
Halakhists here can clarify whether nekoma is applicable only to amecha or not.
CTL: It’s perfectly fine that you feel that the United States shouldn’t engage in regime change. Everyone has the right to an opinion (obviously). But as you know, this has been the practice of the United States since WWII (if not earlier), by both parties, to serve US and international interests:
Syria ’49, Iran ’53, Guatamala ’54, Indonesia ’58, Cuba (Bay of Pigs) ’61, Congo ’61, Dominican ’61, Iraq ’63, Vietnam ’63, Brazil ’64, Indonesia ’65, Chile ’70/’73, Bolivia ’71, Angola ’75+, Argentina ’76, Afghanistan ’79-’89, El Salvador ’80-’92, Nicaragua 81-90, Grenada 83, Panama 89, Iraq ’92, Haiti ’94, Serbia ’00, Afghanistan ’01, Venezuela ’02, Iraq ’03, Haiti ’04, Somalia 06, Honduras 09, Libya ’11, Syria ’11, Venezuela 19, Bolivia 19, Venezuela ’26.
My point is President Trump isn’t doing anything new in this regard. Not even close.
@AAQ
In the early 80s Trump shortchanged payment of a work/goods contract for one of his hotels to a company owned by my eldest brother and me. My share of the shortfall cost me more than a quarter million dollars. We filed suit and Trump declared bankruptcy on the corporation which shortchanged payment.This was long before he entered the political world. He has a a decades long pattern of not paying contractors in full and declaring bankruptcy of his companies
@Joseph
I didn’t say Trump was doing something in terms of forcing regime change in foreign countries. I said I don’t agree with with it.CTL,
so you prefer to live in the world where our enemies influence countries in the world while we live according to the rules? There is mitzva to surrender.If US was able to capture a dictator, improve chances for democracy in the country, improve US standing in geopolitics, decrease standing of various reshoyim – what makes you upset? See an article by our French brother H Levy in today’s 1/7 WSJ – he destroys such attitudes in much better English than mine. He has his own concerns, of course. There is no op-ed without concerns.
CTL, I am not arguing against your personal experiences. I am just saying that your personal experiences should not colour your opinion about world events. And at least you have some personal reasons, but what about all others?!
It is reported but R- support for action against Maduro jumped from 50% to 75% in several days due to the success. It is understandable that some people were not sure this will work (I was in this group), but liked it when it happened. At the same time, number of D- supprt jumped by a factor of 2!! from 6% to 12% …. how is it possible that 90% of D-s are against something so basic as an arrest of a dictator? Not all D-s are commie supporters – you are not.
I don’t know if you knew well your Senator Joe Lieberman. He would probably have approved – but that only 10% of D-s are capable of supporting a good thing just because the other party did it – it is very sad.
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