Health Care Bill

Home Forums Politics Health Care Bill

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • Author
  • #591435

    Lemaisa, what does it mean now that the health care bill has been passed? Has the world come to an end?


    Yes, moshiach is here, and in my house we already boght tickers to eretz yisroel, in ny elyahu hanavi came to inform us that in three days moshiach is coming


    are you serious?


    To answer your question, no. The world has not come to an end.

    We’ve taken three steps forwards towards a rational health care program.

    And we’ve taken two steps back by caving in to the murderous goniffs who run the pharma and insurance industries. Our so-called “free enterprise” health care system is heavily funded by the taxpayers through massive deductions for employer-provided health care.

    Even before the recession a little over half of all bankruptcies were due to overwhelming medical costs. And at least 45,000 Americans die every year due to lack of medical coverage. We pay, on average six to eight times what Europeans do for exactly the same drugs coming off exactly the same assembly line. Every one of these things is unthinkable anywhere else in the industrialized world.

    All other developed countries some variation on the Beveridge or Bismarck systems.

    Under the Beveridge model the government is the sole insurer. Everyone pays into a common fund. The government pays the doctors and clinics directly. Most doctors and hospitals are owned by the government

    Under the Bismarck model there are insurance companies. But they are non-profit by law. They cannot deny coverage to anyone. They are heavily regulated in every aspect of their business. Those who cannot afford health insurance are subsidized by the government

    The United States is the only country with lightly-regulated private insurance companies which can deny or arbitrarily set rates and decide what will or will not be covered. We pay more for and get less health care than any developed country. Under our “free market” system insurance is already heavily subsidized by the taxpayer. The VA, Medicare and pretty much any government-run system in the world have about 3% overhead and 2% lost to waste and fraud. The private insurance industry averages 35% overhead and profit and about 10% waste and fraud according to its own accounts.

    Under the law the US just passed we have private insurance companies with very little regulation and no government control over rates. It will probably be slightly better than what we had before. It will still be far worse than what any European nation, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, most of South America, Israel or a growing number of others has.


    I must also note that we do not have competition even within the insurance industry. In most States the majority of health insurance is sold by the subsidiaries of three companies which have already been convicted of colluding to keep prices high. They effectively have monopoly pricing.


    There is nothing rational about this health scam, system.

    Under this scam, people will find it much harder to start a business since when they need employees and cannot afford the massive health insurance they must provide will

    have to forget about hiring and if they can’t run the business by themselves, they will just go under (or never start the business in the first place).

    The more the government gets involved the higher the insurance will go.

    And this will eventually end private insurance companies which is what these anti business communists have wanted all along.

    When you tell business “You MUST pay for tens of thousands of dollars per year (or more) in insurance coverage, but you are only allowed to charge a few thousand per year, and anyone with pre-esisting condictions must get full and immediate coverage”

    The companies will go out of business under massive debt.

    The government has the monopoly and when they demand that someone like me pay thousands of dollars per year it will put me out on the street because I barely make enough to live and government mandated coverage will mean I can’t pay my rent.

    This whole scam is nothing more then anti business anti American, Stalinism.


    HaShem is Everywhere,

    Israel has has universal health insurance for quite some time!



    The most important *immediate* consequence is that effective upon the signing of the bill, no child will be denied insurance because of pre-existing conditions. This will literally save children’s lives. Most of the other provisions will not take effect for several years.


    anuran is correct about the fact that the Beveridge (UK, Canada) or Bismarck (France, Germany, Israel) model or some combination of the two (Japan) would be better. But we lost the opportunity to get the Beveridge model in the 1960s when Medicare was limited to the elderly and we lost the opportunity to get the Bismarck model when Congress failed to pass Nixon’s national health insurance proposal. This is the best we can get now and it only passed with three votes to spare in the House and zero votes to spare in the Senate. Hopefully we can improve the system in the future, but for over 30 million Americans without heath insurance this change alone may be the difference between life and death.


    The important point is that this is the first time in his administartion that President Obama was able to generate any type of bipartisan agreement. And that was against the bill. Fancy that.


    Will taxes go up? How much more will this add to the deficit? Is this a for sure thing or does it still need to pass in senate?


    Poster, President Obama has already lowered taxes for 97% of Americans. According to the Congressional Budget Office and the Government Accountability Office this will lower the deficit. The same Republicans who loudly demanded CBO and GAO scores are now reduced to blubbering “Lies!” as Limbaugh and Rove did in the past week. But they have no numbers or data to back up their shrieks.

    The same Republicans who said – and I quote directly from Dick Cheney – “Ronald Reagan proved deficits don’t matter” are being utterly dishonest here. After President Clinton lowered the deficit and lowered the national debt they undid all of the reforms, spent like drunken sailors, raised taxes on the middle class and lowered them for the top 1% raising the national debt from 1.5 trillion to 8.3 trillion in eight years. But now that someone has taken tiny halting steps towards throwing a sop to the bottom 99% they are shrieking about the deficit. And Glenn Beck is bawling his little eyes out on cue. And their useful idiots the Tea Baggers are threatening to murder the President.


    Honestly, i do not really fully understand what this health care actually is and what will change. Taxes DOES concern me, since I do earn a decent paycheck but so much of it gets eaten away by taxes. So if Obama’s ideas include an increase in tax then I am against it. This might not make sense to all, but this is my way of thinking.


    How can taxes be raised on so many things and all the people will be forced to pay for this health scam and then the claim is that it will lower the debt?

    Perhaps if everyone gets all their money taxed away, to pay for it.

    But wait, peoples taxes are supposedly lower.

    Can anyone here say their taxes are lower because, of anything Obama did?

    And all through 8 years of Bush he was constantly threatened with death by the same ones who also threatened conservatives and Jews.


    hereorthere, just for your info, this health care bill is a VERY expensive proposition. It will cost the USA about 1 trillion dollars!! There is no way to pay for this with out raising taxes. Obama admitted that he is not thinking about the budget at this point. SO what is his plan? First he will spend an unreasonable amount of money and then he will blame the deficit on Bush!

    Ben Levi

    Welcome back Charlie,

    FIrst off about the CBO score Congressman Paul Ryan is not calling the CBO “liars” he is simply stating the facts CBO must score bills based on what is put before them.

    Hence we have the CBO scoring a bill which states that Medicare comp will be cut by an excess of 20%.


    COngress has already stated they will pass a seperate “DOc FIx” to eliminate those cuts (as they should or no Doctor will treat MEdicare patients).

    The CBO is asked to score a bill based on Congress ebactings taxes years in the future. Will COngress do that? Fat chance considering the fact it does’tn take a rocket scientist to figure out what a 3% payroll tax will do for Jobs.

    The Cbo is asked to score a bill based on 500 Billion dollars in fraud and waste being cut from Medicare.

    Will it be cut?

    Good Questiion, if it can why was’nt it till now?

    Hence you arrive at the conclusion the former head of the CBO stated openly (NYT op-ed I believe) The CBO is the best at what they do neaning they score what you give them give trhem a fraudelent bill and you get a fraudelent result.


    Ben Levi

    CharlieHall I agree with you healthcare saves lives.

    I also think jobs Save Lives, They allow people to put food on the table, they keep people occupied productivley instead of turning to crime. And really good jobs that are really well paying produce innovation that save lives like the great medical breakthroughs 95% percent of which just happen to occur in the USA.

    Producing a measure guaranteed to produce the double digit unemployment that is standard in Europe kills.

    Hence the HC bill in fact does kill.

    Ben Levi

    I would add congratulation to Obama on fulfilling his campaign promise to bring more Bipartisanship to Washington.

    Look how admirably he’s pursued that goal.

    HE created a Bipartisan coalition against the centerpieace of his agenda. Why even Massachusetts elected a Republican.


    Poster I know this health scam bill is expensive in more ways then just monitarily.

    That is my point.

    Others seem not to know, and seem to be in denial.


    Ben Levi,

    Unemployment in the EU is currently LOWER (9.5%) than in the US (10.4%). And some of the European countries with the most generous social welfare systems have very low unemployment; for example the rate in the Netherlands is 5.7% and in Denmark 4.2%. Norway (not in the EU) has a 3.3% unemployment rate despite some of the highest taxes and most generous social benefits in the world.

    Try again.

    Ben Levi

    Greece is headed towards bankruptcy specifically because of the “social benefits” Sarkozy was brought to power because of the 18% unemployment in France as a result of the “social order” and England has high unemployment and a NHS(National Healthcare System) that makes it illegal to give Dialysis to people over the age of 70 to maintain solvency.

    Yes the E.U as a whole has lower unemployment because certain small countries such as the ones you mentioned bring down the average of all of them.

    However lets if you look at there economies it is possible to do what they do simply because they take advantage of their Natural Resources ( something we in the U.S.A do not do) and are extremly small countries, in fact the smaller then many States. The larger the population the higher the bill.

    Let me explain.

    Lets say Bill Gates is generates @ Billion dollar a year.

    You then tax that at 50% generating a 1 Billion dollar amount.

    That 1 Billion dollars can cover lets say 10 thousand peoples social benefits that they get from his work.

    IF the population is 10 thousand people they are completley covered.

    However the U.S.A has 300 million people ( not counting illegal immingrants) hence to compare it to Norway is foolish.

    Then again we do not need to compare.

    We have the begining of the end of the USA as we speak.

    California with a bigger economy then any you mentioned is insolvent followed by Michigan with a disaster rivaling the Great Depression and New York on its heals.


    Ben Levi,

    Greece is facing bankruptcy for two reasons: (1) The former “conservative” government went on a wild (and unsuccessful) spending spree in an attempt to buy the support of voters in last year’s election, and (2) Goldman Sachs’s duplicity.

    France’s unemployment rate is currently 10.1%, lower than that in the US. In 2007, when Sarkozy was elected, it averaged 8.7%. You really should spend a few minutes checking your facts before you post here.

    And Norway’s per capita gross domestic product is 27% higher than that of the US according to the CIA World Factbook. Would that we had such “foolish” policies in the US!

    Ben Levi


    If conservative governments enact liberal policies they remain liberal policies,

    The duplicity of GOldman Sachs was simply that they allowed Greece to borrow money they did not enact the policy’s that required borrowing money.

    France’s unemployment rate is low artificially because of the public sector, the public sector is unaffected at times of recession (as we see in the USA) as such the unemployment caused by the recession has less of an effect.

    A better judge would be the acknowledgement that in good times France had an 8.5 % unemployment rate (roughly) when the USA was at 4% roughly.

    As per Norway’s gross domestic product. I fully agree as I wrote before I wish the dem’s would allow us to use our Natural Resources as does Norway.


    If conservatives pass liberal laws they are liberals as are the liberal laws they have passed.

    The mess caused in this country by liberalism (well actually liberalism causes problems everywhere, no liberalism would mean no problems, at least none caused by people deliberately harming otehrs, but for now I am focusing on Americans problems) has been going on, for well over 150 years.

    This is why I strongly disagree with Sean Hannity and his claim that we need to stick with the Republican party, no matter what.

    They are way too liberal and the liberals have so solidly entrenched themselves in the Republican party that I do not believe the conservatives can ever totally take it back

    and as long as there is even a small sliver of liberal support from withing the Republican party it will always eventually wind up the way it was when McCain was running his extremly liberal and very poor campaign.

    And when Hannity keeps quoting the great Ronald Reagan, who said that we should work from within the Republican party to make it conservative, it was not nearly as bad as it is today.

    It’s like the difference between a minor cut that can be disinfected and bandaged and

    a limb G-d forbid, full of Gangrene.

    In the first case it can easily be saved and in the second, unfortunately there is no hope in the second case.

    Reagan is not around today so we can’t ask him, but I see no rerason to think he would disagree.

    All liberal laws ‘ever’ passed would have to be repealed in order for this country to be set right again and the chances of that happening are slim and none

    (especially if left to the Repubicans to do, the least libeal Republican has never to my knowledge ever even brought up this concept, let alone supported it, no liberal law (except perhaps slavery, has ever been repealed not by

    Republicans or by anyone else)

    , and Slim left town.


    Another point about liberalism is that liberal is, as liberal does.

    So for example, if someone claims that the “dictionary defines” liberaliism a certain way, does that change the fact that no conservatives are antisemites and only liberals ever are?


    Does it make liberal Pat Buchanon, who some people falsly claim is a conservative (even though he is anti business and a big union supporter, just like his fuhrer was) some how not a liberal just because the dictionary may say otherwise?

    Absolutely not.

    Does it make all the antisemites who all over the internet constantly attack everything conservative, and who want Bush “hanged” for fighting the terrorists in Iraq and want Israel to, in their words..”Be nuked” does it make ‘them’ somehow conservative just because the dictionary is supposed to ‘make’ them conservative?

    Obviously not.

    Can anyone show ‘any’ conservatives who supported Bush and supported America fighting the terrorists in Iraq, who are antisemitic?

    No, no one can find a single one.

    Also there is nothing about real liberalism as it is actually applied in the real

    world (as opposed to the “idealistic and high minded” fantasies, liberals like to falsly use, to portray liberalism as supposedly being all about) that is supported or is even remotly endorsed by Torah or Halacha.

    No truly ‘Frum’ person, could possibly be a liberal or support liberalism as it is actually applied in the ‘real’ world, that we have to actually live in.

    Ben Levi

    Hereorthere, Id isagree

    Firstly from a historical perspective the Rockefeelr wing ( the liberl wing) of the Republican party when Reagen fought to get it back was stronger and more entrenched then the liberal wing is now that is a fact.

    Secondly there is no way to get around the fact that starting a third party at this time would cause Republicans to lose in November.

    Now is a time of crisis.

    First the Liberals running the show now who are a danger to both th country and those that have strong religious beliefs must be driven from power. After the present danger is stemmed then there is time to do an even more thourough house cleaning through the primaryt process.

    However if the Liberals are allowed to stay in power past Nowember them Hashem Yrachem on all of us.

    In any case we must all daven to the only one who is truly capable of protecting us from the athiests in power now.

    Ben Levi


    I do agree with you that it is impossible to be liberal and and a Torah Jew.

    Many of the “problems” the liberals set out to do are made greater by them.

    Example: Education

    Those who believe in G-d understand that children are A gift from G-d and therefore must be raised properly.

    For Torah Jews that means a Torah education.

    Liberals decided to care for everyone and creat a “public school” something that is impossible for us to allow our children to attend.

    However we must fund it.

    What doeqa that mean we pay thousands of dollars in taxes and fight to get a drop back.

    Cut the public school system free up the thousands of dollars, allow parents to raise their children. People will be able to pay tuition, Rabbeim will get decenent salaries and be able to affor HC ect..

    In other words the interest of the modern day liberal democratic party are squarley at odds with those of G-d fearing Jews.


    Ben Levi,

    Great point regarding Norway. It formed a state-owned company to exploit its natural resources for the benefit of all, rather than letting robber barons control it as has been done in the US. You are right that the Dems should follow those policies, but the Republicans gave sweetheart leases to their supporters, many of which are still yet to be explored.



    Rabbi Dr. Tendler showed that there is a Torah obligation to provide healthcare for all. No rabbi of any stature has publicly disagreed.

    Furthermore, private property rights are severely limited under Torah law, at least in Eretz Yisrael. If you have a house in Yerushalayim, you are required to put up visitors for the shlosh regalim. If you have a farm, you are required to allow poor people to collect leket, peah, and shich’chah, not to mention shmittah produce. And you don’t have freehold land tenure.

    And of course communal authorities collect taxes for public works and education, whether the public likes it or not — all with the approval of the Torah.


    Ben Levi,

    The idea for public schools came not from contemporary liberals but from Yehoshua Ben Gamla. If you read about the motivation for setting up the first public schools in America in the 1630s, it is very similar to that of Ben Gamla except that the people who set them up were Christian. Once the schools stopped being Christian (Massachusetts was the last state to make the change in 1833), Jews could attend and in fact many frum Jews, including even some great rabbis, attended public schools. Of course, traditional Torah education is better but Jews have always been permitted to set up our own schools here in America. Calling for the destruction of public schools is no way to improve conditions for Jews.

    Ben Levi


    You amaze me with your ability to cherry pick

    Sweethart deals to robber barons?

    In case you forgot it so happens that the Democrats resist all efforts to explore for oil on environmental grounds. Have you forgotten about the ban on offshore drilling.

    What you keep bring up from Dr Tendler is ridiculus. You already posted hi “shiur” I debunked it and you refused to reply.

    As for Private Property rights.

    As for Leket Shikcha and Peah. Have you forgotten those are derived from the Torah and are the obligations G-d placed on his people they are religous obligations. The USA is a secular goverment whose power is derived from the people.

    And the private property rights of the torah mean that even if someone sells his land he gets it back after fifty years among other halachos such as dinei d’bar metzra.

    Ben Levi


    Would you bother giving a decent explanation as to how the constitutional clause allowing the Federal Government to regulate interstate commerce allows the Federal Government to force people to purchase insurance that is not allowed to be sold over state lines?

    Don’t worry so far 13 Attorney Generals (including A DEM) it’s unconstitutional.


    Ben Levi; How liberal was the Rockefeller wing, compared to today?

    That is compared to McCain and his unconstitutional McCain

    FineGold anti free speech legislation, for example?

    The problem is that since Reagan, too many Republicans have fallen for the scam put up by the Democrats demanding that they have a “big tent” and include anyone who wants t join no matter how liberal they are.

    It could be compared le Havdeal Eleph Havdallahs, to alowing anyone to “convert” to Judaism without any real sincerity or going through all the “pushing away” and studying and interviews, they are supposed to endure, to test their sincerity.

    If it had gone on for several generations, there would today be almost nothing left or genuine Torah true Judiasm and extremly hard if not impossible to restore the True Torah following, without the core and well tested and established sincere yidden separating themselves from the huge tangled mess and starting all over again.

    I will admit that the Republicans have finally taken one step in the right direction by all solidly voting against this health scam bill.

    I just have a big question as to how sincere they are in making it a permanent turn around and question how long will it last?

    But I think specifically because we have this crises we can’t afford to blow it.

    I am afraid if the Republicans from this point on and weaken even slightly this country will cease to exist within 3 years.

    You are right about the school system they teach things that even for a Gentile are wrong such as the idea that G-d supposedly cannot exist and they teach it as if it were a scientific and proven fact.


    Charliehall Ben Levi has given some excellent responses to your points and I would ad that I do not know exactly what Rav Tendler said or under what circumstances or about what exact situation.

    I also do not think that not knowing of any response by other Rabbonim constitutes endorsement by them of everything they do not comment on.

    I seriously doubt that Rav Tendler or any other Gedolim would ever support a seculra non Torah government sticking their hands into my pockets and forcing me at gunpoint to give up money that I can ill afford for some “universal” health care’ that will not even cover everyone and which would impoverish me to the point of being forced out onto the street because the government has through legalized theft, stolen my rent money.

    150 years ago, no one was refused medical care because doctors would do it for free rather then see a someone suffer and die for lack of care.

    It is the excessive overregulations and invasive intrusion into our pockets and private lives that has caused this ‘crises’ in the first place.

    What do you think Rav Tendler says about England where women cannot get breast cancer screening because “it’s not in the budget”?

    What do you think he would say about Obama telling elderly people who need ‘expensive’ critical care, to “just take the pain pill”?

    And Ben Levi you are 100% right in that we must daven and increase in Torah and Mitzvohs because everything is from H-sh-m and there must be something he expects us to learn from this.


    >>So for example, if someone claims that the “dictionary defines” liberaliism a certain way, does that change the fact that no conservatives are antisemites and only liberals ever are?<<

    The Fact?? Man are you blind. Goyim hate us equally despite what their political affiliation is.

    Oh, and since I need to actually show you how ludicrous your claim is, how about an organization called the KKK. How about White Supremacists?

    FYI, if you want to be taken seriously, here are 2 pointers so that can help.

    1. Use real facts, it makes you look like a fool claiming things which are false (e.g. that Clinton had no Blacks in his cabinet), especially those which can be easily researched.

    2. Use spell check


    Wait a minute……… Is Tendler just a doctor?

    I had thought he was a rav or other gadol.

    If he is not then, I would not be doing any averias if he were wrong, and I said so.

    Ben Levi

    hereorthere,Have no fear Tendler is not considered a competent Rabbi by to many (he’s the one who led the fight against the Gedolei Yisroel on metzia b’peh).


    Just wanted to let you know it seem the Dems messed up the bill and kids pre-existing conditions are only covered in 2014.

    Oh Well the competent dems got in their tax on tanning salons.


    Oh Frummynotfrum who falsly claimed that he was “not going to respond to me” after he totally unprovoked, ‘started’ attacking me in the first place with off topic personal insults, then called me a bunch of names (which liberals love to pretend are “facts”) and ignored the points I made, while hypocritically whining that I supposedly did not respond to his side points, that had nothing to do with the main point of how evil liberalsim is, (he cannot show any halachas supporting liberalism as it is actually apllied in the world which is my whole point here) which he has never addressed because he knows how absolutely wrong he is but his historical revisionism will not allow him to admit the truth.

    This is what liberals do;

    They look for some side point to attack and then pretend they “won the argument”.

    It is a typical liberal sneaky way of trying to do an end run around the truth, just like they did with their health scam, plan.

    FACT; The KKK all hated Bush and hate conservatives and those supporting them and supporting White supremacists have said so all over the internet.

    Fact, ‘every’ single blog where anyone is actually accused of “abuse of animals” just for eating meat or hunting or wearing fur (which is obviously something only libeerals would support and Torah does not) is full of posts demanding that those falsly accused he slowly tortured and them and their whole families arwe demanded by these liberals to “have their brains bashed against a wall till they splatter all over it” and every single liberal who posts ANYWHERE on the on these blogs and youtube videos including White Supremacists and KKK supporters all support such horrific mass murder inthe false name of “compassion” .

    And another FACT;

    They often say things like ” Jews are behind this and we need to “get the Jews” (I am actually cleaning it uo and making it extremly mild because the actuall

    words and thoughts they express would be too vulger and horrific for this website).

    FACT; Self described liberals like wwllylrp on AOL who posted on the AOL message board

    titled “the War in Iraq”, said that his grandfather was a nazi Panzer officer, and he had fun doing horrible things to Jews and every singel post of his that wasn;t attacking Jews was attacking Bush and conservatives and saying they should all be “hanged from the nearest trees”.

    FACT; EVERY singhe liberal on that board (and elsewhere on AOL who knew this guy) fully supported EVERYTHING he said without exception.

    FACT; No one can find a single conservative Bush supporter who also supported the US fighting the terrorists in Iraq who ever posted anything antisemitic.

    FACT; Only freedom and democracy hating liberals, like Nazis and KKK and White supremacists and jihadists and athiests, ‘ever’ post anything antisemitic.

    FACT: no one can ‘prove’ otherwise.

    FACT; Personal insults, and name calling, have absolutely nothing to do with actual proof.

    Neither does lying about what I said, or whining about typos.


    And not ‘all’ Goyem, hate Jews, if they did there would be no such a thing as a “righteous Goy” like those who saved Jews during WW2 at the risk of their own lives.

    Nor would any want to convert and obviously a decent number do want to convert, despite the halachas of pushing away of potyential converts.

    Plenty of non Jews have channels on youtube that are specifically pro Jewish and anti nazi.

    Sure there are far more antisemites, but not ‘all’ Gentiles, are antisemites.

Viewing 39 posts - 1 through 39 (of 39 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.