helping make a questionable minyan

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  • #614754

    Is it muttar to be the tenth man for a minyan after shkiyah for those who hold a later zman than you? If so, until when?

    #1055386

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is it muttar to be the tenth man for a minyan before mincha gedola for those who hold an earlier zman than you? If so, from when?

    #1055387

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lior: Many hold it’s Muttar to Daven Mincha after Shkiya, most notably the Rama.

    #1055388

    Joseph
    Participant

    How did a small number of tzadikim daven Shachris long after the normative zman? (i.e. even after chatzos. Even forming a minyan, in some instances. And mincha/maariv were davened at irregular times by some of these tzadikim as well.)

    #1055389

    apushatayid
    Participant

    what issur is there to daven after “the zman” that there is a potential problem in helping to make a minyan?

    #1055390

    the plumber
    Member

    Do you have to daven to be part of a minuan?

    Are you asking if uts lifnei iver? They hold its fine!

    #1055391

    Firstly, everyone holds at least b’dieved that one can daven after Shkiyah during Bein HaShamashos. The time l’chumra (obviously for non-Chasidim) brought down in the Piskei Teshuvos is 13 1/2 minutes I believe. Reb Moshe says in his teshuvos 30 minutes – can’t find at moment but saw inside [not sure if that is ending by or starting by].

    Page 1 Mishnah Berurah

    Page 2 MB

    See the last Mishnah Berurah on second page going on Rema that explicitly says that one can daven until Tzeis Hachovim. M’B says (b’evived/shas hadchak) until 1/4 hour before Tzeis (I saw quoted that R’ Ovadiah Yosef says until Tzeis literally so seems the lashon of the Rema and Kitzur Shulchan Aruch who brings it down) and that if there are 3 stars it’s certainly too late. So that’d be around the 30 minute mark of Reb Moshe in America I think (assuming early ‘Tzeis’ of 42/45/50 minutes).

    So for sure they have what to rely on b’evided [and obviously they are going like poskim/ their mesorah that holds it is l’chatchilah after shkiyah] until early tzeis. So helping would not be lifnei ever at all IMHO.

    DQB

    #1055392

    To be clear Mishnah Berurah holds it is better to daven alone than with a minyan after shkiyah. This though is not mainstream practice from many non-Chasidic rabbanim especially during the week.

    #1055393

    Joseph
    Participant

    For how long after shkiah can mincha still be davened?

    #1055394

    For sure (again b’evieved to M’B, Aruch Hashulchan, many other non-Chasidish poskim) 13.5 minutes. I found that Rabbi Doniel Neustadt says 20m because we are concerned that Tzeis is 35 minutes after shkiyah and the M’B cited above says 15m before. Reb Moshe says 30 minutes (can someone find that teshuva). It seems pshat from the Rema, Kitzur, Rav Yosef (cited in article by Rabbi Flug from YU), others that Mincha is until Tzeis Hachovim. Therefore the time one states a fast ends (which is hypothetically earliest time of tzeis as opposed to motzei shabbos which might be longer as a chumra) is for sure ok according to those poskim. In other words, let’s say person waits 42 minutes then until then.

    As stated in the Rav Neustadt article, the Biur Halacha says one should have a tenai that if its too late for Mincha, then the shemoneh esrei can be for maariv, and maariv will be a nedavah.

    Being as 1) Mincha is d’rabbanan (so more lenient in regards to machlokes) 2) a big inyan to daven – there is a lot of room to be makel after the fact. Of course, one should daven in a timely manner (unless maybe if their minhag is otherwise) but after the fact I personally do not see why one should be machmir not to daven. I think (again assuming adverse circumstances) that one who is makel has what to rely on and if their heart is l’shem shamayim (ie they want to daven even though they “dont have to”) then go for it.

    DQB

    #1055395

    Sam2
    Participant

    DQB: Are you sure? I thought the Aruch Hashulchan thinks that Shkia is the cut-off no matter what.

    #1055396

    Sam2,

    You are right. I put him in there as I thought he had the same opinion as the M’B very strongly supporting before Shkiyah. He does bring that is probably the p’shat in the Shulchan Aruch and Tur (ie bein shamashos after shkiyah) that says Erev; however he concludes.

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    Now I am not sure does that mean to not rely for example if a minyan is starting after shkiyah or if one has tzorech to daven after. Or if even if l’maaseh it is after shkiyah and b’shogeg or b’anos it occured, one should rather not daven Mincha.

    He mentions before the minhag to push off mincha until after and brings a limud zchus. Also, his concern by the Rambam is interesting because Bais Yosef does not seem to even have concern for it (as he wonders himself).

    Good Catch, Sam.

    See 9

    DQB

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