Here we go again with alleged theft of public funds

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  • #1342486

    lesschumras
    Participant

    I saw a report that 2 former employees of the Satmar UTA were indicted by the Feds for stealing $3 million in lunch program benefits. They billed for regular meals that the children never received and overstated the number of meals served in 2 other programs.

    In the shoplifting thread there was debate as to whether stealing from nonjews is theft. I suspect that type of thinking leads to what happened here and in Lakewood

    #1342794

    Avi K
    Participant

    There is a general problem with people who think that stealing from the government or a company (I heard about a “frum” insurance company employee who helped people get payments even though they did not have policies – he actually thought that he was doing chesed) is not stealing. Rav Moshe thought differently and also prohibited cheating on the Regents exams (IM CM II:29-30).

    This has led to such tremendous chillulei Hashem that the IRS will not accept statements from yeshivot. Fortunately, the rabbinic leadership is responding with seminars featuring both poskim and frum attorneys on business ethics. Hopefully there will be a turnaround.

    #1343129

    Chortkov
    Participant

    In the shoplifting thread there was debate as to whether stealing from nonjews is theft

    There was no such debate.

    It was unequivocally agreed (as per explicit Gemaras to this effect) that stealing from non Jews is prohibited. The discussion was whether there is an obligation to return a stolen item when stolen from a non Jew, which seems to be a debate in the Poskim, and depends on the exact classification of the prohibition to steal from a non Jew.

    If you don’t like the fact that a non-Jew can have different halachos to a Jew, there is nothing I can do to help you. If you want to deny the fact that non-Jew can have different halachos to a Jew, I can happily prove it to you.

    I find it interesting how some posters feel the need to misquote or misinterpret other posts into something they can ridicule. This is a problem in posters of both extremes, unfortunately.

    #1343202

    huju
    Participant

    We have shomrim to protect the streets and the people in Jewish neighborhoods. Maybe we should have shomrim auditors to protect yeshivas and Jewish charities from financial misconduct.

    #1343209

    lesschumras
    Participant

    If I misinterpreted it, then I apologize.
    I find it interesting that a yeshiva can steal millions of dollars and it doesn’t bother you. I

    However, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of. You are misinterpreting what i said in order to ridicule me.
    I don’tdeny non Jews have different Halacha. I simply suggested that it is those misunderstood differences that lead yeshivas and people to steal from the government

    #1343226

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Ninty eight percent plus of frum rabbonim and askanim invovled in yiddeshe mosdos are honest, hard-working and true baalei chesed and follow the rules and regulations….sadly, the 2 or 3 percent who bend the rules for their own greed and enrichment and try to rationalize their vile behavior as having noble intententions or otherwise legitimize their behavior under halacha (aka “its ok to steal from the goyishe government”) have created a stereotype that feeds the anti-semitic naarative that all yidden are ganovim

    #1343270

    Avi K
    Participant

    Huju, in fact after a big scandal involving a major tzedaka fund that operated in NY and NJ a frum accounting firm was hired to manage the fund. Really every fund should have an attorney and accountant (or someone who is both) to keep them on the right side of the law as well as prevent embezzlement.

    #1343276

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I find it interesting that a yeshiva can steal millions of dollars and it doesn’t bother you.

    Of course it bothers me, as much as any Yid who sins does (with bonus points for a public aveirah).

    I don’t think it is because of misunderstanding of the halachos; it is simply a lack of Yiras Shamayim.

    #1343320

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In any group of people there are always a small number who are dishonest, thieves, scammers etc. The problem is not so much those people, but rather others who are willing to cover up for them.

    If people would act the same ways to thieves and scammers as they do to people who do other averiahs we would all be in a better place

    #1344299

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    We act to these Avaryanim just like we do to our multitudes of Shabbos texters and drug addicts: we try to be accepting, non-judgmental, loving etc.

    #1344526

    MDG
    Participant

    “The problem is not so much those people, but rather others who are willing to cover up for them.”

    Many more people died sticking up for Korach (after he was swallowed) than died in Korach’s own rebellion.
    _______________

    “We act to these Avaryanim just like we do to our multitudes of Shabbos texters and drug addicts: we try to be accepting, non-judgmental, loving etc.”

    It seems to me that swindlers are given more respect (or less disrespect) than drug addicts.

    #1344899

    Joseph
    Participant

    It seems to me that a mechallel Shabbos and drug addicts are given more respect by internet posters and the modern crowd than those who steal from the government.

    And I’ll dare say that mechallel Shabbos is a bigger aveira than stealing from the government.

    #1344959

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Darn straight and for good reason. The first two arent pretending they arent wrong.

    #1345000

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    But I accept halevi’s mussar.

    #1345265

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Mechalal Shabbos is between you and Hashem and with Tshuva Hashem will forgive you. Someone who steals can never do Tshuva because the person he stole from will never forgive him (And even if he does, he still wont trust him)

    #1345243

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Avi k, what you say makes sense but doesn’t always work. Some recent examples. A trusted frum CPA was just sentenced to 5 years in Federal prison for stealing payroll taxes; a frum real estate attorney was convicted of stealing millions in escrow funds; a frum CPA ( and former day school president ) was indicted for falsely certifying shell companies as legitimate as part of a multimillion dollar pump and dump scheme ; a frum, respected CPA firm helped a yeshiva defraud the state of $7 million.

    Unfortunately, hiring professionals doesn’t always work.

    #1345286

    chymee
    Participant

    Guys, aside from whether these guys were right or wrong, please let’s not judge, leave it to the EIBISHTER, especially in this time of year, KSIVAH V’CHASIMAH TOVA

    #1345321

    akuperma
    Participant

    Indictment is an accusation, made typically by a prosecutor to a grand jury with no opportunity for the accused to offer evidence or rebut the charges. It proves only that a prosecutor is out to get you, not that you are guilty.
    It is quite possible in a case such as this one that the accused did not understand the regulations (is the accuased a JD and experience in administrative law?), or did not keep books competently (is the accused a certified public accountant). Even if everything a prosecutor says is true, which is not always the case, and perhaps not often the case, there are still defenses such as incompetence (rather than criminal intent) in keeping books and doing paperwork. One should never jump to the conclusion that someone is a “criminal” based on an “indictment.”

    #1345338

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    I notice that the only thing holding back many people (I come across online) from being anti-Semites is the mere fact that they’re Jewish.

    Same grouping, stereotyping mentality.

    #1345370

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    akuperma: You wrote “It proves only that a prosecutor is out to get you, not that you are guilty.” As someone who works for a prosecutorial agency I find this statement “offensive”. While it is possible that an elected District Attorney may want to bring certain type of prosecutions, line Prosecutors are not out to get anybody. White collar crime investigations are generally investigated for 1 or 2 years before they are even presented to a grand jury. Many times the potential defendants are given an opportunity to meet with the prosecutors to work on a pre-indictment resolution. We do not know if this was offered in this case. While I do believe that a Grand Jury “can indict a tuna sandwich”, more often than not there is still evidence that something is wrong.

    #1345398

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If wanting to remove thieves , scammers, Abusers and other criminals from our criminals makes me a jewish Anti-semite, I wear that badge with honor

    #1345419

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Again, the issue is as much an inyan of perception versus reality. For reasons most understand, the public and media seem to exploit a hundreds of year old Shylock stereotype of yidden as more prone to commit crimes invovling fraud, theft, tax evasion etc. (aka “they are all ganavim”..) Each episode of a yid in chassidish or yeshivish lvush being dragged off to jail only reinforces that stereotype nothwithstanding the fact the the real number of such instantces of proven fraud are small. i

    #1345448

    Avi K
    Participant

    Akuperma, a business owner is so incompetent will be not be in business very long.

    Gadol, you are correct regarding Orthodox Jews. Today’s NY times reported that a court officer with an obviously non-Jewish name was arrested for stealing fine payments. His ethnicity was not mentioned although it could easily be discerned from his name. However, I think that secular people expect “religious” people to be angels. Chazal discuss this (Yoma 86a).

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