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I am interviewing for a cantorial position this week and had some thoughts as I’ve been practicing:
1) Many piyutim in the Yamim Noraim tefillah are very problematic theologically and even grammatically, hence Ibn Ezra’s opposition
2) The Sepharadim do not interrupt the hazarat hashatz with piyutim, therefore, why should we be so makpid on saying them, especially when they take so long.
3) The Nusach Sefard/EDM Avodah is far more intelligible, which is why Rav Soloveitchik used Nusach Sfard Avodah.
4) Therefore, would the following be acceptable for a shatz:
During the repetition, say MiSod Hakhamim, skip the reshut, but say the well-known piyutim of Dagul Merevavah, VeChol Maamanim, Ki Anu Amekha, etc. (those that are said by everyone and/or responsively). Also, saying Hineni before Musaf.
Is there an issue of going from Misod Hakhamim to Zochrenu?
There is a reason why people should have a Rov whom they ask their shaylas to.
I’d advise you to get one and ask.
Ask Avi Weiss.
What’s the problem with the piyutim? I personally think they’re beautiful.
Surely wherever you’re trying out has some kind of Mesorah. Please don’t me meshaneh.
Regarding each of your points:
1) Which ones are problematic theologically? All of them, or a couple? And if you have grammatical problems fix them. The Ibn Ezra is usually not accepted as a major Halachic authority, despite his value as a Parshan. And where is this Ibn Ezra, anyway?
2) The Sfardim don’t say Piyuttim because of Hefsek. If you’re going to follow them, go all the way- don’t say the popular, responsive piyyutim either. If piyyutim are muttar, just recall that this is your time to daven for yourself and the tzibbur for the year- an extra hour won’t kill anyone. If piyyutim are muttar, they should be said. In any case, I highly recommend you say the Hin’ni, with a lot of Kavanah.
3)So switch. But if you’re going to disregard minhagim in favor of older ideas and follow Rav Soloveitchik, you should also say Slichos on Yom Kippur, like the Minhag Hag’onim. (If you’re worried about Hefsek, say them afterwards, I guess.)
4) If I recall correctly, we skip from M’sod to Zochrainu on the second day of R”H Mussaf.
In conclusion, I find your desire to pick and choose whatever strikes your fancy troubling. Pick a Shitta and stick to it, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you. Don’t hide behind whichever posek you like at the moment. “Oseh M’Kulai Bais Shamai U’M’Kulai Bais Hillel Rasha” (R”H 14b)
reb daniel: Keep in mind that a chazzan must meet certain qualifications as spelled out in Shulchan Aruch. As for the piyutim it is the minhag of those who (claim to) follow the vilna gaon not to say any piyutim, and to daven the rest slowly and with feeling. If you will say the avoda on yom kippur, nusach sefard is preferable as it is more easily understood.
During the repetition, say the well-known piyutim of Dagul Merevavah, etc. (those that are said by everyone and/or responsively)
Actually FYI reb Doniel, Dagul Merevavah is not said by all, as Western European Nusach does not recite Dagul Merevavah.
I personally think the idea of piyutim shouldn’t be taken lightly. They were created with much thought, effort, concentration. Ba’alei Ruach Hakodeh, and through Ruach Hakodesh. There are some works that deal with the mystical meanings and references to their words. In fact, I recall hearing that in some (maybe all) every letter was weighted, and contain sublime lofty and mystical thoughts.
Someone opening a machzor and ripping out a page here, a page there, at will is like a child “working” at the hood of a car, pulling out (needless) pipes, wires and belts.
As midwesterner says, you should follow the minhag of the shul (assuming it’s not an ad hoc minyan). As regards the avodah, it’s important that everyone be able to follow it. I daven Nusach Ashkenaz in a Nusach Sefard shul. I have no problem following the davening with my Ashkenaz machzor except for the avodah. The shul provides leaflets with the Sefard avodah so we Nusach Ashkenaz people can follow.
rebdoniel — Are you a Rishon? Early Acharon? Do we even think that we have a whiff of the Da’as that these giants had when they were writing the piyutim?
On the surface, some words may seem a bit troubling, but that is our lack of knowledge, not the authors’.
Do you say Berich Shmei when the Aron is opened? Isn’t the line …La Bar Elahin Samichna… troubling, if misunderstood?
If one is applying for a job, its best not to rattle the snakes.
Dont make major changes unless you are asked to do so.
Ask what he congregation wants and stick to it, do not make major changes from the davening they are used to unless you want to get fired
rebdoniel: I suggest that you ask the Rav of the shul you’re interviewing for. Whatever the minhagim of the shul are, that’s what you should do. What your Rav says doesn’t matter in another shul – you have to go by what that Rav says if you’re going to daven for the amud there.
Why would anyone in their right mind hire you or appoint you when you are intent on doing your own thing. It is the height of chutzpah for you to go somewhere and think you should change the nusach and minhag unilaterally.
Beside the fact that you are singularly mis/uninformed.
rebdoniel: Interstingly enough, I understand your predicament. But if you want to take the lead in an established shul, you have to follow the rules. If you want to set your own rules, become the Rav of your own kehilla and you can then pasken for your Tzibbur.
Changing established practices is serious business. When the Maharil (the foremost Authority on Minhag Ashkenaz) was invited to be Ba’al Mussaf for RH in one town, he inserted a piyut, really against the community’s practice, and it appears from sources, a tragedy struck his family, to which he confessed that it was his insistence on changing the community’s custom.
The Rav (Rav Soloveichik) is the Rav and had his own Shittas (Do you repeat Zecher and Zaicher by Ashrei every time?) Same by the Gr”a, the Mechaber, the Noda BiYehuda. But again, when we’re on that level, then …
Concerning the Zohar — IMHO, the Zohar we have nowadays appears to me to be a conglomeration of the works of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai and Rabbi Moshe De Leon.
rebdoniel: Chachmei Ashkenaz have spoken VERY highly about our piyutim, particularly those of Elazar Hakalir (who wrote the piyutim in bircos shma and almost all of the piyutim of chazaras hashatz on 1st day RH and YK). Tosfos and Rashi quote yotzros and other piyutim throughout (rashi on last week’s parsha actually just quoted one of the piyutim you wish to skip (see rashi on breishis 30:22).
I respect Ibn Ezra a lot (in fact, he wrote some beautiful piyutim himself including tzama nafshi that is to be said as an introduction to Nishmas but is now sung on friday night). But Ibn Ezra is NOT an Ashkenazi posek, and as such should not be used as a source for the minhag in an Ahkenazi shul.
The piyutim are extremely beautiful and are part of a SYSTEM. It makes absolutely no sense to skip the main ones that Elazar Hakalir wrote to say within the brachos and just scream out the “easy” ones after mechaye hameisim. Instead, one should follow the Mishna Brura (who by the way speaks very highly of piyutim and goes into detail also about the piyutim of Shalosh Regalim including the Maarovos said on Yom Tov night) and study the piyutim before Yom Tov.
As far as Misod, it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to say Misod and then skip to Zachreinu (although many yeshivos seem to do that). Misod is an introduction to the piyutim that immediately follow, if no piyutim follow then the Misod becomes a real hefsek since it serves no purpose but for the chazan to show off his voice.
And the best proof is that Misod is NOT said in Musaf of 2nd day RH even though Nesaneh Tokef, Vechol Maamimin and other piyutim are said later on. It is not said because no piyutim follow immediately. This seems pretty obvious to me, but please let me know if you have any better understanding of why Misod is not said on the 2nd day Musaf.
My suggestion: Get yourslef a machzor with a good perush. I suggest getting the new Koren Sacks. It offers excellent interpretations of the piyutim and lays out their beautiful structure in a way, that it my opinion, makes it a crime to skip them.
When you begin to understand the piyutim, and connect with hundreds of years of Ashkenazi mesorah (and the piyutim are remarkably similar on RH and YK between different Ashkenazi communities), I think you will get a different level of respect for Mesores Ashkenaz and will hopefully think differently.
Dear Reb Doniel,
May I make a suggestion to you before you choose a nusach of davening that differs from what is found in the machzorim.
With all due respect, your knowledge is heart-warming, but woefully inadequate. You do not yet have a good grasp of the chasmic differences between the nusach of Ashkenazim and Sefardim, nor the ideas and history behind Piyutei Ashkenaz.
There’s alot of material out there from brilliant people who devoted their lives to researching this subject. May I recommend the following books for you to read. After you read them, you will have a stronger foundation on the subject. From there you can make your own decisions on how to proceed as a Shliach Tzibbur. Until then, please be careful, respectful and modest.
1. Yisrael Ta-Shma , Minhag Ashkenaz Hakadmon, Magnes Press
2. Yisrael Ta-Shma, Ha’tfilah Ha’ashkenazit Ha’kedumah, Magnes Press
3. E. Fleischer, Shirat Hakodesh Ha’ivrit Bi’mei Habainayim, Magnes Press
4. E. Fleischer, T’fillot Hakeva B’yisrael B’hithavutan U’vehitgabshutan (2 vol.) Magnes Press
Enjoy.
artachshasta: It’s incorrect that we skip from Misod to Zachreinu on second day mussaf. We don’t say Misod AT ALL on second day mussaf since no piyutim are said in first brachos! Check any traditional machzor. As such, this proves the point that Misod is NOT said if we skip to Zachreinu, and if Misod is said, it should be followed by the piuytim it is asking for permission to recite.
rebdoniel and others: Many mention that the Gra did not recite piyutim. PLEASE PROVIDE A SOURCE THAT IS BETTER THAN MAASSEH RAV. Masseh Rav is VERY CLEAR that the GRA said ALL of the piyutim in chazaras hashatz on RH and YK. Please look it up inside (in the section of RH and YK) and then get back to us here, instead of making things up (though it is a common error amongst yeshiva educated people who don’t bother to open up maaseh rav or offer a better source). The Gra did not say the piyutim in bircos krias shma. Also, on other Chagim, the Gra held that the piyutim were hefsef, but still said MANY of them (including ve’ata bonim on shavuos, bracho dodi on pesach….) AFTER HALLEL. As someone who is worried of hefsek but tries to follow the Gra I hope you also say these beautiful piyutim after hallel (the Rav by the way did the same thing), as well as the yotzros of Arba parshios, like the Gra and the Rav, after kaddish.
So it’s more like a child who knows how his little toy works, poking his head into a complicated machine and discarding “meaningless” wires, switches, motors. “I’m an experienced mechanic”, he says. He’s a “daya zoger”. He “really knows”. He becomes the machria.
Rebdoniel,
Being pompous does not make you sound intelligent nor does it make you correct.
I know a number of people who were certfiable, they were committed to institutions who felt, and insisted everything they said and did was logical. However we know the truth. Their logic, besides other damamge it had done, landed them in an institution.
Same is with you.
reb doniel: I’m sorry to be writing so much but there were so many points you made that were groundless and had to be addressed.
As such I forgot perhaps the most important. You were saying we should follow the Mechaber in Shulchan Aruch who wrote that piyutim are hefsek. Since when do Ashkenazim follow the mechaber over the Rema? The Rema is very clear that piyutim are recited in the davening by Ashkenazim and Mishna Brura elaborates by giving a story of a rabbi who stopped his community from saying yotzros and then died that year.
If you prefer Sephardi pask as per the Mechaber, maybe you should find yourself a sephardi shul, and wake up early in Elul to say slichos every morning.
nishdayngesheft – You know, ad hominem attacks really don’t make you correct either. If I really wanted (and believe me, sometimes I do) I could write, pretty much word for word, what you wrote to rebdoniel about you. I don’t, for a number of reasons. Principally because saying ‘you’re mad’ is pointless and doesn’t mean a thing. Same applies to Zeeskite whose comment was anything but zees.
Now I’m a yekke, and am all for saying piyutim (we say virtually every piyut going) but *gasp* there were many rishonim who didn’t hold of piyutim. And yes, they knew who wrote them and probably what kavonos they had too. And they still disagreed with saying piyutim, sometimes in some very strong language. So what it boils down to is ‘some do, some don’t’. And everyone should respect each others right to follow their minhag or shitta (provided they are within the bounds of halacha, of course.)
Now, can everyone please chill?
rebdoniel: If you are sefaradi, and something of a talmid harambam as evidenced by this and other posts, how did you end up applying for an ashkenazi cantorial position?
rebdoniel: It’s nice to hear you’re a sefardi, and as such it makes sense for you to follow the shittah of the mechaber, and the opinion of the Ibn Ezra, but why would you try to encourage Ashkenazim (if I understand correctly, it is an Ashkenazi shul you’re talking about) to follow Sephardi psak?
I find that wrong even if the people are too naive to know the difference. How would you like if I got a job as a Chazan in your family’s sephardi shul and tried to encourage them to say all the piyutim in the middle of the Amidah, because the Rema did it that way?
I know my comments were not Zees. Sometimes truth hurts. Yiddishkeit it not about anyone walking in and wreaking havoc on centuries of minhagim at random. That’s all I’m writing. One must follow a mesorah, not become an “oiber chacham” and believe himself above (or at the level) of the previous giants.
If there’s an accepted mesorah one’s following – by all means. But to take matter’s into one’s own hand, and act upon one’s diminutive comprehension – that is (as the mishna says) ???? ??? ??? ???.
rebdoniel — “I am Sefardi.” Very good. So am I. And when I am asked to daven for the amud at my shul on Shabbat morning, I daven Nusach Ashkenaz (nusach of the tzibbur), even though I personally can not understand the order of the Malachim (last line of Kel Adon) in Nusach Ashkenaz. Nusach Sfard and Nusach Sefardi/Edot HaMizach has the correct order, IMHO.
yehudayona:- I daven Nusach Ashkenaz in a Nusach Sefard shul. I have no problem following the davening with my Ashkenaz machzor except for the avodah. The shul provides leaflets with the Sefard avodah so we Nusach Ashkenaz people can follow.
1) You yehudayona are a very smart fellow to still pray Nusach Ashkenaz, despite your Shul doing otherwise, because Nusach Ashkenaz is simply the best.
2) As far as your leaflets, if you come equipped with a Machzor Rabba, it contains both Nusach Ashkenaz & Nusach Sephard for the Avodo:- One above the dividing line, and the other below the dividing line.
Just,
The point is that he wants to change the accepted/ established practice where he “may” be the hazan. Unilaterally. And the justification is because it is an aging Jewish center. So being an aging population is reason to make unilateral change?
Were you being consistent in that concern of yours, that each should follow their established hangagah, you too would chastise him for his chutzpah.
It has nothing to do with wether you say piyutim or not, it has to do with making a unilateral change to suit your current whimsy.
147, it has nothing to do with intelligence or which nusach is “the best.” My paternal grandfather was from Lithuania, so I daven Ashkenaz.
nisht – I was being consistent. There were 2 parts to my post: a) saying that ad hominem attacks don’t make you more correct; further to which b) everyone should follow their own minhag or shitto as long as it is halachically acceptable and not discredit others. Part a) was directed at you and zeeskite, part b) at everybody. Happy now?
“…out to have mixed seating on the holidays,…” — Is there no possibility of a Mechitza? You need to ask a Rav about this.
Atah V’chartanu, the bet sans dagesh. Chazzanim should pay attention to detail. B’hatzlachah.
As the daughter, sister, and mother of chanzzanim, I can tell you one thing. You need to always check with the rov of the Shul in which you take a position, to see what the SHUL minhag is. Never mind your own minhagim. If your strong feeling is to daven one way or another, then you can obviously only take a position in a Shul that shares your particular vision.
When you daven for the Omud, you are the shaliach tzibur, with the emphasis being on the tzibur. Your own hashkafa is secondary to theirs, assuming their hashkafa is in line with halacha. When Eliezer was the shaliach for Avraham Avinu and was mekadeish Rivka on behalf of Yitzchak, he had to put his own desires aside, and do what was the will of the person he was representing. Think about that for the moment, and I am sure you will come to a reasonable conclusion about what you need to do, and what you can accept doing.
The shul where I daven for the amud on the Yomim Noraim says almost all the piyutim. They usually follow the Artscroll machzor – if it says most congregations omit the piyut, they skip it. Otherwise they say everything.
Oh, and there is a mechitzah.
oomis1105 — well said. That’s why it’s called a bas Kol not a ben Kol.
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