July 11, 2021 1:48 am at 1:48 am #1990164
After the tragic events in Florida the past two weeks, and another totally unrelated news story I read about erev shabbos, I thought about the issue of whether it will result in any longer term changes in decisions among the frum tzibur about their residential locations. The other story was about the frum residents of a high-rise condo in NJ across from Manhattan whose condo association had discontinued the shabbos elevator service (to save on “wear and tear”on the elevators) and also instructed the condo staff not to push buttons for frum residents as they had in the past, effectively making the residents “captive” to their apartments on shabbos/yom tov. Obviously, r’l, there is no comparison with the tragedy in Florida but it does make you think twice about living in a high rise, when there are other affordable options. The issue of economics is perhaps the determining question for those who want to live in close proximity to a shul etc. where high density (aka high rise) structures are the only option. Alternatively, these kinds of events are incredibly rare so it may be a non-issue in the long termJuly 11, 2021 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1990229☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Obviously, r’l, there is no comparison with the tragedy in Florida
Right, so why did you make it?July 11, 2021 8:55 am at 8:55 am #1990285RebeliParticipant
What is a condo? I thought it was a bunglowJuly 11, 2021 8:57 am at 8:57 am #1990313
In NJ it is a civil right’s case and the Jewish condo owner must sue the condo board to get thier rights back.
In Florida the problems are the soil is soft the water table is close to the surface and waterproofing probably wasn’t maintained. The water seeps into the concrete creating cracks and weaking the rebar. So if anyone is thinking about buying a Coop or Condo you need to check the apartment but also the building itself. If you see puddles in the basement and cracks in the cement walk away from the deal. This can happen here if the building isnot properly maintained.July 11, 2021 10:00 am at 10:00 am #1990358
According to a local paper, there are structural problems – condos are not required to have reserves, inspection results are given to the board and not necessarily to owners and may be not disclosed at sales. And undefined multi year paperwork process to resolve problems. Every time you get involved in a group activity, expect this. When we lived in a condo, it was an illuminating view into collective decision making by a “diverse” group united only by lack of resources to buy single houses…
Best was a contractor who was scaring the board into major repairs, suggesting that he’ll restore it back using the brick that will look exactly as the original. Everyone was ready to sign up. I am proud that I asked, armed only with linguistics and no building expertise: will it look or BE like the old brick? I respect the salesman for his honest answer: it will look, they ain’t making bricks like that anymore. Shortly after we left, the building went under repairs for years. Always. Ask. Questions.July 11, 2021 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1990363
Caution of group think and act applies in other areas too. One of my Teachers at a public meeting in Lakewood gave a speech, saying Rav X suggested that we join our organizational efforts for the discussed purpose, pointing to a major macher sitting near him. I refused because I can control what my small group is doing and don’t want to be a part of the big group where I can’t stand by all decisions. He explained that he is disclosing this to teach us, students, how to behave.July 11, 2021 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1990418
When you buy a condo or a coop you are giving up your self determination, now others will decide whether to have the shabbos elevator and what improvements are to be made at your expense. The board authorizes these improvement and charges the shareholders.
Developers are interested in maximizing the number of units which is why they are high rise. Otherwise it wouldn’t be profitable to build them.
Low rise buildings are built where land is cheap or is subsidized by the government and zoning law prohibit high risersJuly 12, 2021 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1990735
One trend which carries substantial political controversy is the outcome of the supply/demand realities noted above. Notwithstanding a brief outflow of people during Covid I don’t think that is a long term trend, especially among the frum tzibur and most yidden will not want to permanently relocate to Yenevelt or some small town in West Virginia. Higher demand on a fixed amount of land means higher density. Likewise, the pressure to deal with “affordable housing” means that builders will request and receive higher building heights in exchange for including more low and medium income housing in their new developments. Thus, if you want to remain IT versus OOT, be prepared for more high-rise and fewer low-rise developments.July 12, 2021 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1990822Avram in MDParticipant
“most yidden will not want to permanently relocate to Yenevelt or some small town in West Virginia.”
Based on lots of conversations I’ve had, I actually think that many families do have an interest in moving to communities in a more suburban or country setting, but it’s hard to be a pioneer and not have the Jewish infrastructure in place. As it is said, build it and they will come.
“Higher demand on a fixed amount of land means higher density. Likewise, the pressure to deal with “affordable housing” means that builders will request and receive higher building heights in exchange for including more low and medium income housing in their new developments.”
I don’t think high rises always correspond to affordable housing. In South Florida, the high rises are set up along a corridor that’s 70 miles long and 1 block wide, and are among the more expensive places to live. Then the older neighborhoods between the Intracoastal and I-95 tend to be single family homes but poorer, and the newer developments west of I-95 become more expensive with larger houses. NMB is largely located in that middle category.July 12, 2021 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1990830ujmParticipant
There’s a limit how high frum families will purchase an apartment on. Too high a floor becomes a problem on Shabbos.July 12, 2021 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1990905
uying a coop on a higher floor depends on if they hold of using a Shabbos elevator or not. The modern orthodox do the more frum don’t. Also the age of the elevator may be a factor as they maybe more likely to break down.
As far as affordable housing is concerned in NYC studio apartments start at $2200 a month and to qualify you must earn atleast three time as much per month. With one and two bedroom apartments $2500.00 – $2,800.00 per month and an income below $110,000.00July 12, 2021 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1990919
> many families do have an interest in moving to communities in a more suburban or country setting, but it’s hard to be a pioneer and not have the Jewish infrastructure in place.
There are a lot of small communities from 2 hours from NYC to midwest. Put together hundred families and wagons. Moving West is American way 🙂July 12, 2021 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1990922
Avram in MD: Good point on the housing market along the Florida coast/intercoastal waterway but the high prices have already migrated west as the supply of available sites has diminished. There already are debates over the future of the Champlain Towers site in Surfside. Some want to turn it into a permanent memorial park but economic realities dictate that the insurance company and condo association will want to sell it to a developer for the highest price so that the proceeds can go towards compensation to survivor families and the estates of the victims.July 13, 2021 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #1991277
Miami Beach issued an evacuation order for a two story 30 unit apartment building for structial concerns located at 6881 Indian Creek Drive in Miami Beach so it’s not limited to high rise buildings only.
It is doubtful the Condo has enough insurance to pay all their creditors and shareholders for their losses.
It will be up to the bankruptcy court to determine who gets what.July 13, 2021 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1991288
Obviously, the claims on the Champlain Towers Board will exceed (by an order of magnitude) the assets of the Condo association but the sale of the building site will have to maximize asset value and the highest bidders would likely be developers proposing to build a high rise (with a small “memorial park” off the lobby). I’d be spooked to live there, high-rise or low-rise.July 21, 2021 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #1993634
I can’t see anyone buying the building site right now for $100 million especially when we are not even sure how high they will allow the next building to be. THe value of the land is dependent on the number of apartments the developer can sell. The building that collapsed had 12 floors and 136 apartments. It’s doubtful the city will allow the next building on this site to be the same height or greater resulting in fewer apartments. This will mean that each coop would cost $1 million just for the land, but coops in that area go for as little as $200,000 to $300,000.00,
There is going to be a large drop in the value of Coops in this area for the following reasons:
1) Many owners feel their building is going to collapse and want to sell before it does.
2) Many building are in poor shape and the owners feel the cost of repair is beyond thier means.
3) Coop owners who are on fixed incomes will see maintences charges increase as insurance and inspection expenses continue to rise.
4) Buyer may consider the area too risky and look for coops in other areas.
In the short term the price of coops should drop as there will be too many sellers and not enough buyers.
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