December 21, 2008 12:46 am at 12:46 am #588922
Why has it become the style for yeshiva bochurim not to go to high school (especially in Lakewood)??
I think that this is outright wrong. people need an education for life. Not everybody will sit and learn forever.
What’s the CR’s take on the matter?December 21, 2008 1:33 am at 1:33 am #643268noitallmrParticipant
I think it’s very important to have an education no matter how Frum you are. A person has to know what’s going on in the world and many subjects will help you eventually. For example you’ll need maths for a few Mesechtos like Succah and Science will triple your Emunah and awe of Hashem’s creations.
Yes- it’s definitely very important and it’s a great shame not to go to a high school.December 21, 2008 1:37 am at 1:37 am #643269
noitallmr, you added on some very important points. i would have never opened a biology book if not for high school.
thanxDecember 21, 2008 2:00 am at 2:00 am #643270
To each his own. But don’t start sending me letters when you want to marry off your kids!December 21, 2008 2:03 am at 2:03 am #643271modernduckMember
I disagree. If they really need an education they can go to courses like cope given by The AgudahDecember 21, 2008 2:14 am at 2:14 am #643272
what do you mean, shindy!!!??
since when is it hard to get married if you got an eduction??
i never heard of such a thing?December 21, 2008 4:37 am at 4:37 am #643274
high school is important!!! i never head abt in places like lakewod that boys dont go o high school!!! that’s bizzare!!!!December 21, 2008 4:51 am at 4:51 am #643275thereject18Member
i agree with you 100% asdfghjklDecember 21, 2008 5:05 am at 5:05 am #643277
welcome to the cr!!! you’re only been a member for 15min!!!December 21, 2008 5:14 am at 5:14 am #643278oomisParticipant
That’s funny – I got the opposite impression from Shindy. That she was saying, well if they don’t want to go to school, that’s their business, but don’t bother coming to HER when it’s time to marry those kids off.December 21, 2008 5:15 am at 5:15 am #643279yeshivishbochurMember
and then he got blocked!!!!!!!!December 21, 2008 5:31 am at 5:31 am #643280
yeah are people getting blocked under their screen name instead of member!!!
seems like a night for new members!!! welcome ya all!!!! join the fun!!!December 21, 2008 5:46 am at 5:46 am #643281dont have internetMember
it says on another thread-that if u make yourself a bunch of names there going to block some of your screen namesDecember 21, 2008 6:15 am at 6:15 am #643283eesymbMember
It seems to me that the reason that you would send your children to high school is that they would become an educated self sufficient and contributing part of our society, and not just a drain on our social services ( welfare, food stamps, medicaid).
How can you expect them to do anything in today’s world without even a minimal education? We have an obligation to educate our children, a chiyuv to do so, and those who don’t, are failing therir children miserably and destining them to a life of poverty unnecessarily. Their shidduchim have nothing to do with that. Don’t worry so much about what your neighbors are thinking! TAKE BETTER CARE OF YOUR CHILDREN INSTEAD.December 21, 2008 11:58 am at 11:58 am #643285
That is exactly what I mean. If a family or child decides that getting a secular education is not for them, then that child grows up, marries, has ten or eleven children and then guess what, it is time to marry them off and he has all these debts. Then they have to go door to door collecting. Why anyone would want to chose to be in such a position is beyond me. A Rov from Israel that learns in the Meir told my husband he has never before seen so many people coming to the Meir asking for Tzaddakah. The situation for people in learning is horrible. We just gave $500 to a friend of ours who is collecting for a Talmid Chochum who has a child to marry off in terrible situation, but that is just a drop in the bucket for these people whose need is so great. And the yidden in America have lost their jobs and have their own financial crisis.
I thought it is a mitzvah to teach your son a trade, just like you are supposed to teach him how to swim. It is not fair to teach them how to be a shnorer. I am only hoping I should never be in that position!December 21, 2008 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #643286tzippiMember
This is a serious issue. Believe it or not, I think it is possible to make a reasoned decision to let a child drop English after a certain point (though a GED would be lechatchila in this bedieved), provided the kid knows that if his future is predicated on a rich shver, he has to evaluate things. There are parnasah options for kids who want to remain in the daled amos of the beis medrash, whether safrus, milah, shechita, hashgacha and more. Parents have to really know their children and have partners they can work with within the yeshivos.December 21, 2008 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #643287
Look what is happening to the lakewood yeshivos. They have no money to pay their teachers. Is this a direct result of most of the parent body not having money to pay full tuition? By not getting an education this will perpetuate this scene over and over again.
They are ossuring the internet, but they will take money from my husband who makes his money by yes, using the internet.December 21, 2008 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #643288
“There are parnasah options for kids who want to remain in the daled amos of the beis medrash, whether safrus, milah, shechita, hashgacha and more.”
Tzippy, do you honestly think that this is a parnosah option for people who have 12 children? I am constantly flooded with calls and mailings from these very people. They do not have jobs that give them much health insurance so if they have one kid with health problems they are wiped out. These are very meager paying jobs, okay if you do hashgocha for a major kashrus organization but how many people want to travel constantly to hong kong and india etc. I guess shechita they can make a living we always need meat and chicken but how many shochets do we need already.December 21, 2008 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #643289
never mind the kid’s future. even if his parents are zillionaires and he’s gonna be able to learn for the rest of his life (not that anything is guaranteed but even IF) – it won’t kill anyone to be a little knowledgeable!
i think it’s a laziness. yeshiva guys take advantage and attribute it to “frum”December 21, 2008 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #643290Esther1Member
Brooklyn- I’m not saying that I’m pro no-ed. However, I wouldn’t attribute it to laziness. I don’t believe that most eighth graders make their own decision where they’re going for high school. They may be included in the decision that is made by the parents. I’m not sure that I’m being clear. What I mean to say is that parents might say to a child- this is what kind of school we decided you are going to, do you have a preference of School A or School B, both of which fall into the same category.December 21, 2008 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #643291
I don’t agree with you brooklyn19, they aren’t lazy. They really want to stay in learning (who wouldn’t want to?) My hubby wanted to stay in learning but guess what, nobody was going to support us so he went to work.December 21, 2008 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #643292Bais Yaakov maydelParticipant
i dont know about kids not going to school but i know for a fact that many yeshivas in lakewood dont have any english/secular curriculum.December 21, 2008 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #643293
not all kids. there are a few that are really sincere. and yes, plenty of kids are really learning during that time. but i think it’s become cool to skip english. especially when there are 5 geniuses who get in the high 90s on their regents without opening a book.December 21, 2008 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #643294TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
I don’t remember who said it, but I heard that a Rav (and a prominent one at that), said, that if kids who are in a yeshiva where secular studies are part of the curriculum, it is bittul zman not to try your utmost.
that being said, not studying secular subjects as well is ridiculous. I am in 12th grade, and realize that it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to support my family. The Ketuba says it is my responsibility, not my father-in-law’s … to mooch off of him would, in my eyes, be disgustingDecember 21, 2008 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #643295
If kids misbehave that is bitul zmanDecember 22, 2008 12:20 am at 12:20 am #643296
Good for you! IY”H you will make a good husband one day. may there be more like youDecember 22, 2008 12:43 am at 12:43 am #643297TOHIGHSCHOOLGUYMember
thank you … amenDecember 22, 2008 3:37 am at 3:37 am #643298Esther1Member
Shindy- I can tell that you’re a good mother.December 22, 2008 3:59 am at 3:59 am #643299
Sending yeshivish boys to high school would be a waste of time. I work in an elementary school for boys and it is a waste of time. The kids see it as a time to act out and have fun. There is no point.December 22, 2008 4:05 am at 4:05 am #643300
postsem – there’s where you’re wrong. we gotta change their attitude, not the curriculum.December 22, 2008 4:08 am at 4:08 am #643301
I don’t think it is possible to change the attitude if in 5th grade already they think of English as a time to have fun. Any IdeasDecember 22, 2008 4:13 am at 4:13 am #643302
- get the parents to at least pretend they care
- get decent teachers
- capital punishment! lol
but seriously, if the whole feeling they get from everyone – including their parents, teachers, and principals was not so flippant, maybe there would be something to work with.December 22, 2008 4:13 am at 4:13 am #643303
sorry i missed a n in your name.December 22, 2008 4:16 am at 4:16 am #643304
I don’t know. I don’t see what the big deal is if a boy starts learning all day when he gets to high school. Why should he care about slopes and ancient civilizations and clauses and phrases?December 22, 2008 4:18 am at 4:18 am #643305
postemgirl: your right but still there should be strict english. It is not rightDecember 22, 2008 4:31 am at 4:31 am #643306
he’ll grow to be a burden on society! i’m very into learning and kollel and the works. but you need to be a capable, somewhat knowledgeable person to be able to live in the world. even gedolim in america are not blank when it comes to the outside world. i’m not saying they have to study sociology. but basic history and english is vital.December 22, 2008 5:17 am at 5:17 am #643307oomisParticipant
Schoolboys will take school seriously when they see that their PARENTS do. A secular education is not only necessary, it is crucial. What a generation of illiterates we will be raising if they do not understand the importance of being able to properly read, write, do math and understand something about the world! The problem is that many parents are not on the same page as the schools, and they are not supportive of the secular studies departments.December 22, 2008 5:55 am at 5:55 am #643308
I think an elementary school education is ok. it makes the chillul Hashem in the schools less that is for sureDecember 22, 2008 9:50 am at 9:50 am #643309
This is unrelated to the topic but TOHIGHSCHOOLGUY’s mention of the “ketuba” made me write this.
I am curious why some people pronounce all Tav’s with the hard sound “t” and never use the “s” sound. As far as I remember Tav is pronounced /t/ when there is a Dagesh Kal in it and pronounced /s/ when there is not. It’s possible that I’m wrong but I think that there is no Dagesh in the word kesuba.
Can someone explain this to me? Do you use these pronunciations in Davening as well?December 22, 2008 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #643310
“It’s possible that I’m wrong but I think that there is no Dagesh in the word kesuba.”
I meant that there is no Dagesh Kal in the Tav of the word Kesuba.December 22, 2008 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #643311tzippiMember
Shindy, I mentioned those parnasa options because I think they are reasonable hishtadlus. But you have a point, but then is the only logical conclusion that our kids only become professionals?December 22, 2008 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #643312
The logical conclusion is that our kids have to know that mommy and daddy are not going to be able to support them forever, so if they chose to have professions that earn little money (and no health insurance)be prepared to live in poverty. My parents raised us that if we were old enough to get married, we are old enough to be independant financially. My husband wanted to learn, great, we lived in a mouse infested basement with used furniture, I worked so he could learn, and we were not supported by ANYBODY. Where do we see kids like that nowadays? I’m not saying the kids should be doctors and lawyers but they need an education to make a parnosah, not to spend their days asking for tzaddakah and their nights worrying.
Even people who are professionals are having a hard time now. But I think the people in learning are in a worse matzav, and I don’t want that for my kids or grandchildren. It is horrible to live in poverty, to need hand outs, to go to others and ask for money.December 22, 2008 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #643313gavra_at_workParticipant
Don’t they say what makes a nice jewish LAD is if he’s a Lawyer, Accountant, Doctor?December 22, 2008 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #643314Josh31Participant
Even for those going into learning on the track to become future Torah leaders, having at least the standard level of math and language skills is essential. Chazal (Torah leaders of about 1500 – 2000 years ago) speak severely about a Talmid Chacham (Torah scholar) whose manner of dress is substandard. Illiteracy is the modern equivalent of substandard dress. Having Torah scholars lacking a High School education will bring down the level of honor for Torah and its scholars.December 22, 2008 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #643315
can anyone answer my question that I asked before?
Why do some people pronounce all Tav’s with the hard sound “t” and never use the “s” sound. As far as I remember Tav is pronounced /t/ when there is a Dagesh Kal in it and pronounced /s/ when there is not. It’s possible that I’m wrong but I think that there is no Dagesh in the Tav in the words kesuba, Shabbos, Mitzvosai (AKA Ketuba, Shabbat, Mitzvotai) just some words I came across recently. Anyone?December 22, 2008 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #643316
sephardim and dati leumi :}December 22, 2008 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #643317myshadowMember
no clue intellegent, start a new thread you’ll probably get your answerDecember 22, 2008 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #643318SJSinNYCMember
Actually, there are many subjects that are really important for talmidei chachamim to understand in order to delve deeply into the gemara. Math skills are important, basic anatomy….even astronomy!
Aside from that, some of these subjects are needed for basic life skills (going to the grocery store and knowing your bill is approximately right)…December 22, 2008 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #643319SJSinNYCMember
Intellegent, I thought it was a regional type thing. Remember the sibolet/shibolet thing in Tanach? (I forgot where it is exactly)One side used that word as a password because the others said it differently. [OK, I realize this is barely information, maybe someone else can point you to the source?]December 22, 2008 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #643320
yeah when they were trying to stop either shevet efrayim or menashe – i’m not remembering – from crossing the yarden they made them say a sentence and depending on how they pronounced it, they knew which shevet they were from. ouch my tanach is rusty.
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