January 18, 2022 12:53 am at 12:53 am #2052064
ujm, note that R Moshe is writing about 60 years ago. A lot changed. Threats changed. At that time, a college was a direct path to assimilation. Nowadays, it is still for some, but there a lot of observant professionals who have no such problems. The balance for “need” of college to earn parnosa also changed a lot. Lots of jobs that required high school only are not there any more. This caused a lot of social problems not just in a Jewish world. Note that people did not become noticeably smarter, so a lot of current “college” is really remedial high-school with credential for an office job, and not the high end college that R Feinstein was talking about (and that BY aspires to).January 18, 2022 7:00 am at 7:00 am #2052068
I wish i had the time tonight to respond to everyone, but I’ll just answer the last point AAQ made – rav moshe writes clearly “aside from the spiritual dangers” meaning he’s making it clear that the issue isn’t just ruchnius damage (although nowadays he’s definitely agree that a secular college is a death sentence for one’s spiritual well being)…the issue is gezeilas kishronosav, stealing the best years of a young man’s life when he’s able to grow in Torah and throwing it away in order to have a good job.
Rav moshe also intended this particular point for bnei yeshiva and not for the entire klal, to be fair. But to flip what you’re saying….in our time the issue isn’t limited to the stifling of bnei aliyah, it’s the toxic Atmosphere of any secular college which inundates students with poison…ask yourselves, granted theres a desire not to be secluded, but at what point would you seclude yourselves? What if there were unclothed people everywhere around you in a college? What if they forced you to bow to an idol upon entering?
The things they teach and the people you’ll be around are literally just as bad
Copying and pasting poorly translated mishnayos from sefaria is not going to win an argument; nor is quoting one controversial rabbinic figureJanuary 18, 2022 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2052104
The Mattersdorfer Rav ztz’l explained the passage עם הארץ אסור לאכול בשר, an am haaretz is not allowed to eat meat because he sends his son to college so is chaish lemeuta, the minority that he will come out as good as he went in. The gemora questions according Rebbi Meir, how one could eat meat maybe he shechted at the windpipe or the veshet, the food pipe in place of a hole, therefore, we go after the rov, the majority but he goes after the minority. I said to be careful not be like Haran to go in the fire because Avraham survived. I was specially careful not to go to unnecessary places like the student center.January 18, 2022 10:19 am at 10:19 am #2052127
AAQ: My initial understanding was the the OP was looking for one of the more moderneshe yeshivos offering a more robust secular program with AP courses etc. that would be attractive to one of the top colleges. The tuition at these “upper schools” as they are sometimes know in NYC, Washington DC, LA, South Florida are in the $25K-$29K range plus additional fees. Most offer tutition assistance and scholarships so including the financial aid would reduce these amounts depending on the OP’s level of financial need. They are still a bargain compared to the top “private” high schools where tuitions range up to $50,000/year w/o even including the cost of dorm living for OOT students.
While not always true, the tuition at the yeshivos offering a lower level of secular programs is lower than those that do.
Any just for the record, my initial post reference “Ivy League and OTHER good schools”. …Some Ivy schools not in the top rankings for certain fields anymore an you obviously can get a great education in a number of State schools.January 18, 2022 11:07 am at 11:07 am #2052133
Rav Moshe re: “bnei yeshiva”
this is an important distinction that is somehow lost in translation. For me personally, it is obvious that someone going into Rabbonus & Chinuch should spend 110% of his time on limud, and maybe another 10% on getting some general knowledge so that he can apply his learning to current life and relate to his students. You don’t need to become a boke in science, but you need to acquire enough worldview to be able to learn later in life.
Now, for the rest of population, we currently have multitudes going to yeshivos (parallel to masses going to college) – which is a good thing in general, but we need also to train them to earn an honest living. They do not need to go to Ivies, but they can go to local/Jewish/online colleges – and the question should be how to make it safe, not whether. For example, use yeshiva classes/CLEP/AP for humanities to avoid indoctrination, do not dorm in strange places, have hevrusas, combine w/ learning (when R Twerski wrote to Steipler whether he can go to Med school, Steipler replied – with daily hevrusa, mussar/chasidus learning, mikva, I think). I believe this is actually happening under the radar, with people using small NJ colleges to pass at lowest requirement level.January 18, 2022 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #2052166GadolHadofiParticipant
In previous posts you claim to work as a nuclear physicist, to have been a semiconductor engineer and that you dropped out of college to start a business.
It seems that many posters feel that you’re just a troll who lives in his mommy’s basement. But pretending right along with you, which pretend posek allowed you to pretend to attend college and then waste time from pretending to learn Torah on these pretend secular pursuits?
Or are you just criticizing others for things that you pretend to be guilty of yourself, also know as trolling?January 18, 2022 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #2052192
AAQ, i agree 100% that college courses in and of themselves aren’t bad for most people. Rav belsky would tell some talmidim they should go (only to kosher programs), others that they can go, and others that they shouldn’t, depending on a host of variables . He also would say beshem rav yaakov kaminetzky that a younger beis medrash bochur shouldn’t have his eyes on future secular education, but should imagine that his beis medrash years will be the way life will be forever. It’s a mistake to be in high school and be jumping at the future of college; everyone should be focusing on learning at this age, regardless of whether or not their future will be in klei kodesh. When an older bochur told rav pam that he wanted to be a rebbe, he said “you? A rebbe? Go be an accountant”, and this was from a gadol who made impassioned appeals to bnei yeshivos to go into chinuch.
It gets problematic only when the environment is poisonous as it has been progressively degenerate for decades, or when a capable young man decides that he simply doesn’t want to stay in learning despite his abilities.January 18, 2022 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2052219
” I believe this is actually happening under the radar, with people using small NJ colleges to pass at lowest requirement level…
AAQ: I hope your right. However/wherever its happening, its a net positive to have a greater percentage or frum youth obtaining some level of college education while continuing with their limudei kodesh.January 18, 2022 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #2052244Reb ShlomoParticipant
My experiences were way back in the 1950s and 60s. Never having been blessed with children I never had any reason to involve myself in choosing Yeshivos. So I would not be the proper one to advise you. Many of the Yeshivos that existed in my time have either fallen by the wayside or evolved completely to the right. You need a much younger person to advise you who is familiar with the current scene.January 18, 2022 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2052266
Reb Shlomo, I appreciate what you are saying even though being younger than you having today a birthday of 74 years. I went to Chasan Sofer and had a secular education seder in the afternoon gaining a high school academic degree by taking the Regents. I also went to Brooklyn College and got trained through the Agudah in Computer Programming at Cope Institute. I worked in Brooklyn College as a Senior Research Aid when I followed up at NYU Courant Institute towards a Masters in Mathematics,January 18, 2022 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #2052274
Gadol, I know a number of people going this way, I just don’t know how prevalent it is, maybe others can enlighten us. Even when I was looking for a shidduch in the previous millennium, one shadchanit was musing about Lakewood bnos figuring out that learning SW in a small local college ad working as programmers is a great way to support their kollel husbands. But if this is under-radar and b’dieved, this is probably not done the best way. Kids have limited community support and insight into what they are doing and probably getting more of a diploma mill. For example, it is rare when people complain about English education, but English skills on average are horrible. It is just everyone feels inadequacy in math or science, but it seems to many that as long as you can talk in some English, this is enough. I would guess inability to write well is a barrier to a lot of jobs. You will just not be told after you send an email.January 18, 2022 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #2052282
you would do well to either not talk about things you don’t know, or do your homework before lecturing. I am not sure how much enjoyment you get out of painting the learning community as a bunch of illiterate people with fake diplomas they printed against the wishes of the community, or that they have sub par professional skills and can’t write. Your alternate reality is pathetic. And you accomplish only destruction by spreading your presumptions. Saying disgusting lies about a community of people with a smile on your face makes it no less lethal. Perhaps you are too worried about covid and masks to see how badly you treat and talk of others. And then deflect and deny and pretend it never was said. I can already identify which sentence fragment you will choose to pull out of this paragraph to over focus on in order to make the rest of it go away.January 18, 2022 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2052281
Avira > Rav belsky would tell some talmidim
And I believe the same is true for many other Rabonim, including R Feinstein, that their private advice depends on a person, including Rav Pam’s advice to someone NOT to go into teaching. I’ve seen some who did not ask R Pam. Obviously, only the best should go into teaching, and traditional halakha approach of allowing unlimited competition between teachers works towards same goal.
I understand the idea of learning without thinking of college. This is fine as long as there are responsible adults who will direct the turn when appropriate. But where the focus is on learning and discarding those who do not keep up, may work well to train talmidei chachamim, but less so to develop a healthy community.January 18, 2022 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #2052285
Syag, I didn’t realize OP was a kid – my tone was harsh because I thought it was yet another parent sacrificing a child on the altar of education, success and haskalah.
I teach children of these backgrounds and I’m nothing but patient and understanding; I try to slip in an idea here and there to stimulate independent thought, but I am respectful of whoever I encounter in my work, even an unmarried couple with children who I spent hours consulting to get them to keep their children in a Yeshiva.
Online I like to vent frustration at times; I don’t mean to target anyone particularlyJanuary 18, 2022 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #2052289
well it’s not a good place to “vent”, they can still hear us and be turned off by rants. We have to always always keep the audience in mind, tearing people apart for things they don’t know about or understand is a shove out the door. I actually just heard a rav give a source for this in a parsha shiur. I will try to remember Bez”H, who and what.
a great idea: Find some way to get Joseph’s number, I think he’d be thrilled to chat with you.January 18, 2022 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2052290
I do appreciate syag calling me and others out for potentially hurtful rhetoricJanuary 21, 2022 12:09 am at 12:09 am #2053046FollowMesorahParticipant
There is a very interesting interview about exactly this subject on this weeks headlines show by David Lichtenstein, at the 57:16 marker. Many of these points were discussed. Question is, why did it take so long for such an obvious solution? Does it strike the right balance?January 21, 2022 12:29 am at 12:29 am #2053065
EEEE, could you recap?January 21, 2022 9:52 am at 9:52 am #2053074
Syag > how much enjoyment you get out of painting the learning community as a bunch
Syag, not much. I am saying what I am saying in a hope to make things better. I actually think it is very reasonable to send kids to a local cheap school. For sure better than to send to expensive mid quality school far away to study who knows what as many modern people do. I am sorry that I am not very good at cheering people up: when I start analyzing the problem, I immediately start thinking what can be improved. Offline, I might keep it to myself, but I see no reason not to express opinion here where we have a chance to discuss it. I am not the only one (not to compare, but to illustrate). R Steinsaltz once showed a video of some guy from CT approaching Lubavitcher Rebbe to tell him that their community just built a mikva. Rebbe replies I give you a brocha to build a mikva. The guy thinks that Rebbe is not hearing well and repeats louder that they _already_ built the mikva! The Rebbe repeats, the guy gets louder, etc, until the Rebbe clarifies – I give you a brocha to build the next mikva.January 21, 2022 11:23 am at 11:23 am #2053177FollowMesorahParticipant
Recap of show:
Many parents themselves don’t appreciate the archaic curriculum, passing along those sentiments to the next generation.
A curriculum that is more focused on Life skills, relatable, and interesting that both follows state guidelines, but also is something the kids themselves have interest in.
LifePrep Education System provides a program to all types of high schools, catering both the curriculum and the instructors they hire to the specific yeshiva and parent body. So they provide to the schools both a new curriculum and teachers. I imagine its a very expensive program, but I also checked out their website and they really have an impressive lineup of instructors.
editedJanuary 21, 2022 12:08 pm at 12:08 pm #2053234
AAQ – I’m not talking about your need to recommend fixes. I’m talking about your erroneous view of what you are trying to fix. Does it ever occur to you you may be wrong sometimes?January 21, 2022 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #2053238
Whatever works for YOU is the right answer. Some bochurim have the skills, motivation and self-discipline to supplement their yeshiva’s curriculum with on-line classes and self-instruction while others will need the structure and support of a traditional classroom with skilled teachers to obtain the necessary secular skills in language, math and science to proceed on to college and grad school . Its never a one-size-fits-all formula when it comes to learning and education.January 21, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2053281
Syag > erroneous view of what you are trying to fix
well, just list what you disagree with rather than musing about my character. I am really interested in hearing different opinions, especially if they give some explanations. You can also look at the nearby threat of colleges, where OP coming up with seemingly such list of colleges that give you BA for no work. Anyway, we need to define what the goal of the degree is and a path to it. But overall I think the middle path is the right one – not the fancy ivies and not the degree mills, but reasonably-priced local or online or NYC Jewish colleges that give quality education without exposing to hurtful environment.January 21, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2053279
Well, all I know is that I have a Master’s degree, so I must be an outright apikores.
The WolfJanuary 21, 2022 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #2053300
Wolf, Master’s degree in what?January 21, 2022 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #2053298
“I am really interested in hearing different opinions,”
been there done that. I wish you were.January 22, 2022 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #2053359ujmParticipant
Wolf: In your estimation, how much more are you earning today given the Master’s you possess, than had you only had a Bachelor’s.January 22, 2022 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2053546
Ujm, it’s not just salary, it is also lifestyle choices. In some professional settings, people are tied to a conveyor, in others, you can take time off for learning and family … It is not of course fully goes by degree, there are lawyers on firms and independent ones, and there are plumbers who are in charge of their life, but generally more education gives you more control.January 23, 2022 6:29 am at 6:29 am #2053628ujmParticipant
AAQ: Most CEOs and very many business owners (in addition to lawyers, as you noted) are tied down to engaging in their employment or business for an inordinate number of hours every day or week.
Most Uber drivers, on the other hand, have great flexibility in the number of hours and, perhaps more importantly, which hours they work.January 23, 2022 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #2053738CTLAWYERParticipant
Things change over time. I am a baby boomer. When I was in high school, I went o Yeshiva from 7:30 to 12:30 and then the afternoon shift at public high school from 1-5. Then to an Ivy league college and law school.
My daughters and granddaughters went to a Chabad girls high school that has been around 60 years. It prides itself on top notch secular studies half a day and their students being admitted to top colleges and universities. Outside of members of the Principal’s extended family, virtually no girl goes on to only seminary after high school. This school had a boys high school as well in my sons day, it closed before my grandsons time, so they went to high school in Brooklyn, but were listed as being homeschooled in CT, got CT diplomas and admitted to top colleges and law schools. Mrs. CTL and I taught them most of their important secular subjects or engaged specialist tutors.January 23, 2022 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2053769
ujm > business owners v uber drivers
this is a great example. I think Uber drivers are always on an edge to get the new ride and not “lose time”. An Uber Talmid Chacham can sit and learn and then pick up a more profitable ride. As a business co-owner, I agree that it takes time. Still, I am working “24 hours but not in a row”. Ability to be there for the family without going and asking the boss every time is priceless. Those who started WFH lately are probably have similar feelings now.January 24, 2022 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2054101
Wolf: In your estimation, how much more are you earning today given the Master’s you possess, than had you only had a Bachelor’s.
Hard to say and completely irrelevant to anything I said.
The WolfJanuary 24, 2022 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #2054103
Wolf, Master’s degree in what?
The WolfJanuary 24, 2022 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #2054179
Wolf, getting a MBA does not make you an apikores. It actually makes us understand a mishna in Bava Metzia. It says הזהב קונה את הכסף, gold acquires silver because silver becomes the currency and gold a commodity. Why? Gresham’s Law says, bad money drives out good money from circulation. The bad money here is silver which becomes currency, being spent and gold will be horded and not spent becoming a commodity.January 24, 2022 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #2054263
> getting a MBA does not make you an apikores.
indeed, MBA would be a good education for a Talmid Chacham
Many of Talmidei Chachamim in Gemorah were in business. On this daf, there are two that partnered, each one contributing a bull to the working pair. Others have workers collecting figs, buying real estate, etc. It seems that T’Ch has an extra challenge – as others are looking up to him, he can not use some kulos that others do so that people will not get confused what halakha is, so they need to accept some extra losses, for example, on chol hamoed.
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