Hilchos Yichud Question

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  • #598510
    cookies123
    Member

    Is it allowed for a girl to sleep in one room with her friend and her brother in another room in the same house (other floor) they are all older than 13?

    #795797
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    can you lock the door from the inside (in other words can you lock him out of your room?)

    #795798
    Hacham
    Member

    coffee: What does that accomplish?

    #795799
    RSRH
    Member

    Perhaps I am mistaken, but I I recall back when I studied hilchos yichud that one man MAY be misyached with two women as long as one of them is someone with whom he could be misyached if she were alone. In this case, a brother can, of course, sleep in the same house as his sister, and therefore can also sleep in the same house as his sister and his sister’s friend, provided of course that no other yichud issues develop – i.e., sister leaves friend alone in the house with brother while she goes out for a specified extended time; or brother and sister’s friend seclude themselves in the same room – locked from the inside – while sister is still in the house.

    #795800
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I think that’s one of the heterim, but then you two would be stuck in her room the whole night

    #795801
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    cookies: The same issue applies when your aunt or cousins sleep over. If you have other men in the house, not much of a problem.

    #795802
    MDG
    Participant

    No.

    A bother and sister do not keep each other from impropriety, whereas a husband and wife do.

    If your parents are there, that might work, but if it’s just the 3 of you, no question it’s forbidden. See Rambam Isurai Biah, chap 22.

    ? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ????–???? ?? ???? ????? ?????: ??? ???? ?? ???, ???? ?? ???, ????? ?? ???? ????.

    The same wording is in the Shlchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 22.

    #795803
    cookies123
    Member

    my question is if there are no ohter men in the house, the parents went away, sister and brother stayed home and sister has a friend sleeping over- and the door can be locked from inside the room does that pose a problem?

    #795804
    apushatayid
    Participant

    2 women may not be meyached with one man. I dont believe a brother/sister act as a shomer to each other, but am not quite sure.

    Even if it is technically not yichud, do you (or your parents, or the parents of your friend) think this is a good situation?

    #795805
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “they are all older than 13?”

    Also, for yichud, “13” is not the age where it becomes an issue. I think yichud becomes an issue when a girl is older than 3 and a boy older than 9. Perhaps this is a shayla you are best discussing with the family Rav.

    #795806
    MDG
    Participant

    “I dont believe a brother/sister act as a shomer to each other, but am not quite sure.”

    There is a question even if a brother and sister can be miyached (for example, the parents are on a long trip). Rav Moshe rules that for long terms (I beleive for over a month) it is forbidden.

    So it seems pretty clear that they are not shomrim of each other.

    #795807
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Cookies wherever you have teenagers without parental supervision there is bound to be trouble, whether it is permissible by halacha i do not know.

    #795808

    WHY DO PEOPLE ASK SHAILOS IN THE COFEEROOM INSTEAD OF CALLING A ROV? You can call the Bais Horaah at 732-905-9992.

    I’m especially annoyed at people like mdg and rsrh who sound like lomdim and “pasken” on line – yes people take what you write and then decide for themselves!

    For the record it’s a mchlokes poskim – see dvar halacha siman 8 – so you need a rov to aactually be machria!

    p.s. i’m not a practicing rov so dont accuse of me of defending my profession

    #795809
    cookies123
    Member

    Thank you all, it was a friend that was going to go away for overnight and leave her kids home. I told her right away I don’t think it’s allowed halachically, just wanted to double check.

    #795810
    Hacham
    Member

    It’s yichud and assur.

    #795811
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Cookie. Even if the consensus here is that it is not yichud. Would you encourage your friend to leave the house the way) you describe?

    #795812
    MDG
    Participant

    rarelycomments,

    I’m sorry if I annoyed you. Someone asked a question and some of us gave our answers to the best our knowledge. None of us claimed to be practicing Rovs. When I see a discussion here, I consider it a discussion and not a psak. But if, as you wrote “people take what you write and then decide for themselves!” is true, then I deeply sorry for “paskening” here and anywhere else that I might have paskened. I will be more careful. Thank you.

    #795813
    MDG
    Participant

    cookies123,

    rarelycomments brings up a good point. Please ask a Rav.

    I remember a time when I had a question about a kashrut incident. I looked up the Shulchan Aruch, Shach, and Taz. I was ready to question whatever the Rav said (either lenient or strict), thinking that I understood the issue enough to discuss. Well, he approached the issue from a completely different angle (and I had nothing to say).

    #795814
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    rarelycomments: This forum has disclaimers up all over the place telling people not to get psak from the discussions here. We are simply talking Torah. BTW, I notice you had no problem with the people who said “assur.”

    #795815
    MDG
    Participant

    ItcheSrulik,

    rarelycomments was annoyed with me, and I said “No.”

    #795816
    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    My mistake, I skimmed the thread quickly and got you mixed up with the post above yours.

    #795817

    mdg: thank you. i am most impressed to see you taking it seriously. (i happen to know that people do this from my own sister – she told me she’s uncomfortable calling a rov so she goes online to try to find an answer. obviously i was very surprised)

    May you shteig in torah and yiras shamayim and be zoche to marbitz torah!

    #795818
    Ben Levi
    Participant

    I don’t mean to give a final psak, however Yichud with a sister is permitted on a temporary basis, it is forbidden on a permanent basis.

    What is the cutoff point is subject to dispute. There are those who hold it is thirty days, Reb Moshe zt’l disagrees and holds it is for an extended period of time, even if it is less then thirty days.

    As for the fact they are in different rooms, the consesus of poskim seem to hold that as long as there are shared facilities, for example a bathroom it would be prohibited since they must leave their rooms.

    However if each room had their own bathroom and the doors were locked then depending on other factors there would possibly be room to be leniant.

    As was already noted the above is strictly for informative purposes and for an actual psak please consult a competent Rov who is knowledgeable in these Halachos.

    #795819
    MDG
    Participant

    rarelycomments,

    Thank you for the Bracha, and may you also be zoche to all that. I am also surprised that people would get a psak from the internet, especially an open forum. Thanks for bringing that to light.

    #795820
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Lots of times people have questions and they are afraid to discuss them publically where they are known. The internet allows people to ask questions anonysmously which some need.

    #795821
    MichaelC
    Member

    In Igros Moshe he mentions the Shailo of a brother and sister being together in yichud-he said they can be in the yichud for a certain amount of time (i think it’s between 2-3 weeks).

    He mentions other yichud cases like, and is lenient in many of them as there could be a situation where a second male can come back any time (unannounced) and it will no longer be yichud (mentioned in Talmud Kiddushin).

    #795822
    hello99
    Participant

    zahavasdad: there are online “ask the Rabbi” sites where you are receiving an answer from a known and qualified Posek. They are still fully anonymous.

    #795823
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I know, but it doesnt mean everyone knows that.

    Like it or not, in the internet age people go online to discuss questions and issues anonymously and maybe find people with similar issues

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