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Is it allowed for a girl to sleep in one room with her friend and her brother in another room in the same house (other floor) they are all older than 13?
can you lock the door from the inside (in other words can you lock him out of your room?)
coffee: What does that accomplish?
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I I recall back when I studied hilchos yichud that one man MAY be misyached with two women as long as one of them is someone with whom he could be misyached if she were alone. In this case, a brother can, of course, sleep in the same house as his sister, and therefore can also sleep in the same house as his sister and his sister’s friend, provided of course that no other yichud issues develop – i.e., sister leaves friend alone in the house with brother while she goes out for a specified extended time; or brother and sister’s friend seclude themselves in the same room – locked from the inside – while sister is still in the house.
I think that’s one of the heterim, but then you two would be stuck in her room the whole night
cookies: The same issue applies when your aunt or cousins sleep over. If you have other men in the house, not much of a problem.
No.
A bother and sister do not keep each other from impropriety, whereas a husband and wife do.
If your parents are there, that might work, but if it’s just the 3 of you, no question it’s forbidden. See Rambam Isurai Biah, chap 22.
? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ??????, ??? ???? ??? ????–???? ?? ???? ????? ?????: ??? ???? ?? ???, ???? ?? ???, ????? ?? ???? ????.
The same wording is in the Shlchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 22.
2 women may not be meyached with one man. I dont believe a brother/sister act as a shomer to each other, but am not quite sure.
Even if it is technically not yichud, do you (or your parents, or the parents of your friend) think this is a good situation?
“they are all older than 13?”
Also, for yichud, “13” is not the age where it becomes an issue. I think yichud becomes an issue when a girl is older than 3 and a boy older than 9. Perhaps this is a shayla you are best discussing with the family Rav.
“I dont believe a brother/sister act as a shomer to each other, but am not quite sure.”
There is a question even if a brother and sister can be miyached (for example, the parents are on a long trip). Rav Moshe rules that for long terms (I beleive for over a month) it is forbidden.
So it seems pretty clear that they are not shomrim of each other.
Cookies wherever you have teenagers without parental supervision there is bound to be trouble, whether it is permissible by halacha i do not know.
WHY DO PEOPLE ASK SHAILOS IN THE COFEEROOM INSTEAD OF CALLING A ROV? You can call the Bais Horaah at 732-905-9992.
I’m especially annoyed at people like mdg and rsrh who sound like lomdim and “pasken” on line – yes people take what you write and then decide for themselves!
For the record it’s a mchlokes poskim – see dvar halacha siman 8 – so you need a rov to aactually be machria!
p.s. i’m not a practicing rov so dont accuse of me of defending my profession
It’s yichud and assur.
Cookie. Even if the consensus here is that it is not yichud. Would you encourage your friend to leave the house the way) you describe?
rarelycomments,
I’m sorry if I annoyed you. Someone asked a question and some of us gave our answers to the best our knowledge. None of us claimed to be practicing Rovs. When I see a discussion here, I consider it a discussion and not a psak. But if, as you wrote “people take what you write and then decide for themselves!” is true, then I deeply sorry for “paskening” here and anywhere else that I might have paskened. I will be more careful. Thank you.
cookies123,
rarelycomments brings up a good point. Please ask a Rav.
I remember a time when I had a question about a kashrut incident. I looked up the Shulchan Aruch, Shach, and Taz. I was ready to question whatever the Rav said (either lenient or strict), thinking that I understood the issue enough to discuss. Well, he approached the issue from a completely different angle (and I had nothing to say).
rarelycomments: This forum has disclaimers up all over the place telling people not to get psak from the discussions here. We are simply talking Torah. BTW, I notice you had no problem with the people who said “assur.”
ItcheSrulik,
rarelycomments was annoyed with me, and I said “No.”
My mistake, I skimmed the thread quickly and got you mixed up with the post above yours.
mdg: thank you. i am most impressed to see you taking it seriously. (i happen to know that people do this from my own sister – she told me she’s uncomfortable calling a rov so she goes online to try to find an answer. obviously i was very surprised)
May you shteig in torah and yiras shamayim and be zoche to marbitz torah!
I don’t mean to give a final psak, however Yichud with a sister is permitted on a temporary basis, it is forbidden on a permanent basis.
What is the cutoff point is subject to dispute. There are those who hold it is thirty days, Reb Moshe zt’l disagrees and holds it is for an extended period of time, even if it is less then thirty days.
As for the fact they are in different rooms, the consesus of poskim seem to hold that as long as there are shared facilities, for example a bathroom it would be prohibited since they must leave their rooms.
However if each room had their own bathroom and the doors were locked then depending on other factors there would possibly be room to be leniant.
As was already noted the above is strictly for informative purposes and for an actual psak please consult a competent Rov who is knowledgeable in these Halachos.
rarelycomments,
Thank you for the Bracha, and may you also be zoche to all that. I am also surprised that people would get a psak from the internet, especially an open forum. Thanks for bringing that to light.
Lots of times people have questions and they are afraid to discuss them publically where they are known. The internet allows people to ask questions anonysmously which some need.
In Igros Moshe he mentions the Shailo of a brother and sister being together in yichud-he said they can be in the yichud for a certain amount of time (i think it’s between 2-3 weeks).
He mentions other yichud cases like, and is lenient in many of them as there could be a situation where a second male can come back any time (unannounced) and it will no longer be yichud (mentioned in Talmud Kiddushin).
zahavasdad: there are online “ask the Rabbi” sites where you are receiving an answer from a known and qualified Posek. They are still fully anonymous.
I know, but it doesnt mean everyone knows that.
Like it or not, in the internet age people go online to discuss questions and issues anonymously and maybe find people with similar issues
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