Historical Record

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  • #1737234

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Sometimes in Shas there are disputes as to certain things that occurred during the time of the Beis Hamikdash, like rituals, etc. Since the Mishna was compiled not that long after its destruction, why is there a dispute at all? It was so soon after that one would think that they would have known EXACTLY what occurred.

    #1737432

    Joseph
    Participant

    The Mishna may have been compiled at a certain point and time, but it was written spread out over hundreds of years prior.

    #1737445

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “It was so soon after that one would think that they would have known EXACTLY what occurred.”

    Why would you think that? Human memory is very faulty , People easily forget details year to year

    #1737464

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    So therefore Al achat kama vekama it should’ve been accurate. If it was written centuries prior, then for sure they should have known what happened in the Beis Hamikdash.

    #1737478

    K-cup
    Participant

    Generally accetped frum view (artscroll) is just a hundred years.

    #1737479

    Joseph
    Participant

    Depends which Mishna you’re dealing with and when it was written. Some were written while the Beis Hamikdash stood while others were written many years after the churban.

    #1737520

    The little I know
    Participant

    There were also disputes that existed during the times of the Beis Hamikdosh.

    Example: Hillel and Shamai disagreed whether it was permissible to bring certain individual karbanos on Yom Tov itself. Hillel did bring such a korbon, and talmidim of Shammai were present. The gemora relates that Hillel took steps to conceal his actions from talmidei Shammai. There were probably other areas of disagreement. What is remarkable is that אלו ואלו דברי אלקים חיים. The two sides who disagreed were at total peace with each other, freely marrying into each others’ families, etc. Today, the questions before a shidduch about whether the other side uses the Eruv or not are plainly sickening and divisive.

    #1737548

    laskern
    Participant

    The Midrash Shmuel on Avos explains the mishna כל מחלוקת לשם שמים סופו להתקיים the question is who wants the arguments to stand? He explains that since the Beis Shamai helped the Beis Hilel to arrive to truth, they are also praise worthy and maybe therefore the Beis Hilel were preceded by the Beis Shamai because of their humility to hear an opposite view before making a decision.

    #1737585

    Avi K
    Participant

    The trauma over the Churban and mass destruction of the Jewish communities in Judea caused people to forget many details. This si why in the end Rebbe had to write down the mishnayot.

    #1737956

    benignuman
    Participant

    Even when the Bais Hamikdosh stood, the avoda was not always done k’halacha. There were extended periods of time where the Cohen Gadol was a Tzeduki or someone who bribed their way into the position. Additionally, halacha can change. A later Sanhedrin can override an earlier Sanhedrin.

    In short, most of these machlokesim are not what did happen in the Bais Hamikdosh but what SHOULD happen in the Bais Hamikdosh.

    #1737990

    laskern
    Participant

    The Rabbenu Bechaya at the end of Parashas Ki Siso explains the expression חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני Rebbi only wrote down what was absolutely necessary and not what was self understood from the mishna. When the generations became weaker in knowledge, more had to be written down. This is how the gemora came into being. So what was left out of the mishna, was left out on purpose.

    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  Y.W. Editor.
    • This reply was modified 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1739815

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    One example is Aravot. One opinion was that they laid them on the Mizbeach and then circled it, while another opinion is that the circled the Mizbeach and then laid the Aravot on it. But they were there! Or their grandfather was. They should know exactly what happened!

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