- This topic has 18 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 1 week, 5 days ago by .
-
Posts
-
Since this is Yom Hashoah I was wondering the following,
Is it appropriate to use the term “Holocaust Survivor” to refer to a child hidden in a Budapest swiss safe house ? Meanwhile, my grandparents went through ghenim in Auschwitz , Buchenwald and Bergen Belsen which is unfathomable (Oct 7 hostages are the closest to that). I get that many are the only eyewitnesses left to tell the story. That’s important and very important. But calling them survivors just cheapens the horrific part of it.
P.S. I get there are poylishars who say any Hungarian never really experienced the gehinim living through 5 years of it plus ghettos nebach. But they were there and suffered too. Its a big leap to say someone never there and just alive then seeing it from afar is a “survivor” . (not to belittle what they went thru)
Yes. Absolutely, someone who hid in Budapest is a Holocaust survivor.
This was never a question and isn’t one now.
I knew someone who was a twelve year old in a safe house under the protection of Wallenberg during the holocaust . He for his part was obsessed with the holocaust and his experiences. None of the Polish survivors I knew, who all went through so much more and worse were obsessed like that.
Anyway, there are different levels of being a holocaust survivor . The secular definition is anyone who went through Nazi persecution. Someone who was a child in Germany and left with his family in 1936 because of the way they winds were blowing is considered a holocaust survivor just like someone who went through six years of torture in Poland. There is an ulterior motive behind why the secular world stretches the definition so much. That way the holocaust is barley unique.
I think it depends on what someone went through. Even being in a safe house was terrible . But being someone who is worthy of giving brochas on par with a Gadol B’Yisroel because they went through the holocaust and remained frum is something I would only say about someone who was in actual concentration camps. Or an extended period in a ghetto. Or years of hiding in a forest . Etc.
If a person was in an area controlled by the Third Reich, they qualify as a “Holocaust survivor”. The same would apply to anyone who escaped. It probably doesn’t count if you were in an area controlled by a German ally, but who did not cooperate with the Germans in killing Jews (e.g. Finland and Japan). Whether you should count those who “almost” ended up under Nazi control but escaped because the Germans lost the war (e.g. British Jews – who were one battle away from doom in 1940, but the British won that battle). Then you can ask about Jews who were living in Eretz Yisrael (remember the Germans controlled Lebanon and Syria, and were probably one battle away from taking Egypt) or even America (the Gestapo was already checking for where to put concentration camps, and at one point the US was working on plans for moving the government further away from the coast). Given the global nature of World War II one can argue that we are all descended from “Holocaust survivors”.
You don’t say how old the child was, but i would imagine he went through emotional trauma. I would certainly consider him a survivor.
My grandmother was one of the lucky ones. She was a German Jew who escaped shortly before the Holocaust to America, and managed to work and get the rest of her family out a few weeks before the borders were sealed. She came here by herself. As an adult, she was a fiercely independent, but very mean and judgmental person who if you were not on her favorites list, was very difficult to get along with. When I said “I love you” she would sometimes respond, but she would never initiate it except for one time in the final year of her life, when I was on the phone with her and she thought I was someone else.
It was only after she passed away a couple of years ago at 101 that I realized that her entire personality and issues I’ve mentioned were likely from the trauma she had to endure as a child to come over to a new country by herself and be responsible for saving the lives of her parents while she still could. While her life was never in danger in America, I would certainly even consider her, in many ways, a victim of Hitler, and a “survivor.”
We also do not pay enough attention to those who were on the Soviet side of that war. Many did not survive, and some did. There is way less written about them than about those who were under Nazis … One reason – territory under Nazis was freed after WW2 and evidence and people were there, while those who were in Siberia were often unaccounted for… There is a book “Children of Teheran” about Polish children who were evacuated from Poland into Russia and Central Asia, and later were sent to Iran and then to Palestine (thanks to Polish government in exile who insisted on getting these children when Soviets allowed Poles to organize their army from those in Soviet exile/labor camps). The book documents their experiences through multiple interviews.
Chaim87,
“Is it appropriate to use the term “Holocaust Survivor” to refer to a child hidden in a Budapest swiss safe house ? Meanwhile, my grandparents went through ghenim in Auschwitz , Buchenwald and Bergen Belsen which is unfathomable (Oct 7 hostages are the closest to that).”
Where do we draw the line on someone’s experience before they get a “title”? Of what benefit to anyone is gatekeeping the term Holocaust Survivor?
“But calling them survivors just cheapens the horrific part of it.”
No it doesn’t. Calling someone who lost just one finger an amputee doesn’t “cheapen” the experience of someone who lost both legs.
I heard it from a survivor who was in the camps as a little kid that when he went to the survivor conferences, older people questioned his experiences.
Osama Bin Laden-the terrorist leader of Al Quada & leader of the terrorist act of 9/11- was captured & killed on May 1 2011. Israel’s Holocaust memorial day (Yom Hashoa) in 2011 came out also on May 1. Hitler YEMACH SHEMAM commited Suicide on May 1.. put the english date of 5-1 together & get the wake-up message DIRECTLY FROM HASHEM. you get 51, which chapter in Tehillim is chapter 51? The chaper of תשובה (repentance) when will klal yisroel wake up & do teshuva? just how many more signs of tragedies C”V will have to happen before we do תשובה? IS THIS MESSAGE & SIGN ENOUGH or does klal yisroel need more Tzaros to get us to wake up & do תשובה?
May we all finally accept Hashems Wake up call for serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.
This is a bit silly
Avram has it exactly right
“A surviror is someone who was locked up in camp by Germans YMS or their collaborators”
so someone who was rounded up with his family watched them all shot, managed to pretend to be dead then ran off to jopin a partisan group living on berries and such for 4 years isnt a holocaust survivor because he wasnt ” locked up in camp”
Interesting take. You said “Nevertheless, in our frum circles they are just not on the same pdesatl. ” and “I think the line is clear” Not in my frum circles and it isnt clear to me ,
and also not clear why this mattersSam
“Osama Bin Laden-…was captured & killed on May 1 2011. …. Hitler YEMACH SHEMAM commited Suicide on May 1.. … just how many more signs of tragedies C”V will have to happen before we do תשובה? ”
Why are the deaths of Osama and Hitler tragedies?
This is a non-productive topic.
People should be recognized for their accomplishments, not for their degree of being victimized.
Dividing Jews serves no purpose.
My first MIL was born in Germany. Her parents were OstJuden born in Poland. In 1936 her parents had their business and property confiscated and were forcibly dumped over the Polish border. She and younger brother were considered German citizens so they were interned in a German (not Jewish) orphanage for years. In 1939 they escaped and with a group of young Jews walked all the way to southern Jugoslavia and they made their way to Palestine by ship.
Her parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents and cousins were all killed in the camps.
She survived the Holocaust, thus was a survivor. She complained in her adult life that she was excluded by survivors and organizations of survivors because she was not in the camps. She also never received any reparations because she was born in what became East Germany.Her husband was born in Vienna. After the Anschluss he watched his grandparents and brother rounded up and sent to the camps, never to return. He was forced into slave labor for years. Again no reparations for family home and business or Austrian pension because Austria claimed it was an occupied country.
He got the same reaction: slave labor camp, not a survivor, death camp a survivor.This whole topic is utter nonsense
Ubiquitin
Both of these wicked people from Hitler Yemach Shemam that murdered 6 million innocent Jews to Osama bin Laden that also murdered thousands of innocent people. You don’t call this a tragedy of the Holocaust happening Rachmana litzlan?
And with that very day that Osama bin Laden was captured and killed on that year it being the exact same day as Israel Holocaust memorial day versus other years it comes out on a different date. You don’t consider this a SHOCKING MESSAGE DIRECTLY FROM HASHEM waiting for klal yisroel to wake up to serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.Think about it and let Hashem our loving father and king of Kings ruler of the world know when YOU’RE READY for this time of sadly non stop horrific tragedies hitting klal yisroel to come to a complete stop. IT’S COMPLETELY IN OUR HANDS and there’s no one else to blame but ourselves for continuing to live in denial instead of waking up to FACE REALITY and openly accept Hashems Wake up call for serious Teshuva and Achdus together as one loving nation so Hashem can send Mashiach already bkarov.
Sa,
I’m thinking about it and I dont get it
Your attaching significance to the date 5/1 and said “it was a day of many tragedies”
You geve three example of tragedies that occurred on 5/1
1. Yom hashoa (some years)
2. Hitler killing himself
3. Death of OSmaI dont understand why Hitler killing himself and OSama being kiled are “Tzaros to get us to wake up & do תשובה?” they seem like good things
I understand why the Holocaust is a day to think of teshuva ( though not why only on years it falls out on 5/1)
hitler killed himself on that date because it was may 1 – international labor day celebrated by all commies and socialists. american commies were for many years shy of celebrating this day the way soviets and europeans did and also prefers to do things on weekend, so US has “walks for hunger” “first sunday of may”, or in other words – first sunday after May 1st. Recently, R’L, there are actual May 1st events.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.