Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › How about being machmir on ben adam l'chaveiro?
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February 19, 2016 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1140158popa_bar_abbaParticipant
DY:
February 19, 2016 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1140159zahavasdadParticipantComparing a Rav who assurs a TV vs a “Rav” who lets an abuser go free is nonsense. A ‘Rav” who does not have an abuser be reported is no differnt than a “Rav” who allows ham to be eaten at the December 25th “Seduah”
February 19, 2016 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1140160☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantB”H, Avram and popa share gavra’s chumra. Mi k’amcho Yisroel.
February 19, 2016 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #1140161Avram in MDParticipantDaasYochid,
🙂
February 19, 2016 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1140162nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
You say you were paid off the books, did you report that income on your tax return?
February 19, 2016 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1140163YW Moderator-29 👨💻ModeratorHe didn’t say that, he said he saw it happen.
February 19, 2016 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #1140164MDGParticipant“If the violence is in progress. If it is after the fact and a shaila can be asked then we follow the psak (which may be to report it.)”
AFAIK, an abuser will abuse again. Therefore, although he may not in pursuit now, he will be soon.
February 19, 2016 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1140165zahavasdadParticipantI pay all my taxes. I saw it happen with other people
February 20, 2016 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1140166Avi KParticipantAvram,
1. I was referring to people in the Coffee Room. However, b’toch ami ani yoshev. One common instance is people, being that you mentioned children, is men who must look after very small children who are incapable of sitting quietly. They do not realize that at that time it is prohibited for them to daven in shul (Mishna Beura 98:3). In fact, they think that they are being machmir on tefilla b’tzibbor.
2. When I go into a store to browse I try to avoid the salespeople and i one approaches me I state explicitly that I just want to look. I also lug groceries home even though I was told (not by the owner) that people can take wagons home so long as they return them.
February 21, 2016 12:34 am at 12:34 am #1140167nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
The only way you know that got paid off the books would be if you were the accountant or saw their W-2, or if it was you who was paid that way.
There are many places that pay cash to their employees and report it. I’ve seen that many places and yes, I’ve seen their w2.
February 21, 2016 6:16 am at 6:16 am #1140168Avi KParticipantNishtdayngesheft, an auditor could also figure it out.
February 21, 2016 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1140169nishtdayngesheftParticipantAkiK,
Yes, but ZD is no auditor. That I am sure of.
February 21, 2016 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1140170zahavasdadParticipantOne doesnt have to be an auditor to know these things. People who work at a job for a while are not stupid or naive, they know whats going on. Sometimes even the people who are getting paid off the books even brag about it.
February 21, 2016 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1140171nishtdayngesheftParticipantBut there are people who assume a lot and who have been proven incorrect very often.
Thus, their assumptions and assertions are not reliable.
And if you were asserting that you are machmir on bein odom lchaveiroh, at a minimum you would have to be Dan lkaf zchus.
February 21, 2016 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1140172oomisParticipantPeople tend to forget that as Hashem is the One Who Gave us ALL the Taryag Mitzvos, those that are specifically called “bein adam l’chaveiro” are ALSO bein adam laMakom at the same time.
February 21, 2016 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1140173zahavasdadParticipantUnfortunatly this one company did not pay NY the sales tax they collected either and NY does not take too kindly when you collect sales tax from customers and dont give the money to the state and they punish you severly . They are no longer in business
February 21, 2016 2:58 pm at 2:58 pm #1140174lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, so are the Satmar brothers chayav for being in a secular court? You don’t have to answer. Your continued silence on this point speaks volumes
February 21, 2016 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #1140175lesschumrasParticipantHere’s one that applies to everybody. Blocking a legal driveway ( particularly one belonging to another frum Jew who needs car to get to shul ) and justify iy by saying they are late for minyan.
February 21, 2016 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #1140176nishtdayngesheftParticipantZD,
I know of many, many non jewish and non frum places that do just that.
The worst I have personally observed was a place taking Hundreds of thousands for government grants that were not used for the correct purposes, not remitting hundreds of thousands for tax withholdings. Using the company money to pay off persona credit cards.
This was not a jewish entitiy. It was run by some person who had been written up as a superstar in the press including the NYT.
Yes it was reported to the government.
February 21, 2016 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1140177🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantI have worked very very hard on these small areas of bein adom lchavero. I only mention them because they are so small that we don’t even realize the mitzvah in them. I get my energy to do it by keeping in mind the idea that I can be mikayemes mitzvah in little ways throughout my day.
1) I read a story about a rav who would pick up garbage from the hallway floors to make the custodians job easier. I’ve taken it upon myself as well.
2) emptying containers of liquids before throwing them away so the garbage isn’t any heavier than it needs to be.
3) making sure to tell my kids I love them even when I’m really not in the mood to say so.
4) being dan l’kaf zchus in situations where it is to my detriment.
5) saying yes when my kid asks for a ride without making him feel like a burden.
February 21, 2016 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1140178JosephParticipantLC: For the umpteenth time, for sure how can you blame both of them? At least one of them was shlepped in involuntarily.
February 21, 2016 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #1140179zahavasdadParticipantBecause non-frum or Non jews do the wrong thing does not mean we should be copying it
We are an Ohr La’Goyim and should set an example of how to behave in business and its a tremendous chilul hashem when we dont
February 21, 2016 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1140180lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, for the umpteenth time,this first time you’ve responded. So, at least one of them is wrong.
February 21, 2016 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #1140181JosephParticipantSo be a chosid of the other one and shalom al yisroel, and we’ll be the best of friends and even agree with each other on half the things.
February 21, 2016 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1140182nishtdayngesheftParticipant1) ZD, you intimate that it is those who are frum who are the worst offenders. As a riff off the OPs comment. That is patently false.
2) I wonder if paying someone off the books is considered bein odom lchaveiroh. (ZD, I am not sayings its muttar. Before you assume I am saying so.) I just wonder if this is a part of bein odom lchaveiroh.
3) Falsely accusing a large portion (your trend in comments is that it is the overwhelming majority) of Jews are involved in illegal acts is far from being makpid on bein odom lchaveiroh.
4) There are many other areas that it appears people have to be “Ohr Lagouim”
5) There are many instances that “Ohr Lagoyim” is severely misinterpreted.
6) Falsely accusing a great many Frum people of illegal acts is definitely NOT being an (Ohr Lagoyim)
Proof pair ice of this so the whole OO movement and certainly their touted leaders.
February 22, 2016 12:11 am at 12:11 am #1140183lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, a. What is your source that innocents are routinely convicted? How many Jews sentenced for civil crimes have had their convictions reversed?
B. How many frum Jews are actually in prison for refusing to testify ( it’s called being in contempt ).
Were these statements based on facts or, as usual, based upon your feelings?
February 22, 2016 12:26 am at 12:26 am #1140184JosephParticipantAre you kidding, LC? Google how many convicted murderers are later acquitted. And that is only convictions for murder. And most false convictions are probably never overturned. And, yes, there have been numerous Yidden in America who were moser nefesh not to be a moser and as a result did time in prison. Totally innocent people who overheard other parties in their workplace engage in talk of illegal activities that the person overhearing had nothing to do with but prosecutors subpoened them and judges ordered them to testify. Even when offered immunity they refused in deference to the issur gamur of mesira, as the piskei teshuva I earlier cited state.
February 22, 2016 6:48 am at 6:48 am #1140185Avi KParticipantJoseph, those who refused to testify committed a chillul Hashem (Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 28:3). See also Rav Schchter’s on-line article “Regarding Mesirah”.
February 22, 2016 11:56 am at 11:56 am #1140186JosephParticipantThey are being mekayim a Mitzvah for refusing to testify that I envy their cheilik in olam haboah; especially if they do time for that. See the Igros Moshe I earlier quoted. Genuk with your miscitations of S”A which directly prohibits mesira.
February 22, 2016 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1140187zahavasdadParticipantJoseph,
A child is being abused often and you have seen it more than once. You are asked to testify against the abuser and when you do the child will stop being abused and be safe. If you do not testify the abuser will not stop what they are doing.
Which do you choose, Stopping that child from being abused and lose your Olam Habah and testify or do you not testify, the child will continue to get abused and you will maintain your olam habah for not testifying
February 22, 2016 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1140188Avi KParticipantJoseph, here is the exact language of the Shulchan Aruch as well as Rav Schachter’s opinion:
??? ????? ???? ????”? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ????? ?’ ?? ?? ???? ?? (????? ??):
Regarding Mesirah by Rav Herschel Schachter
The prohibition of mesirah is well known among religious Jews. The severity of this issur becomes ever so clear when we read in Shulchan Aruch that a mosser is dino ke’akum with respect to writing a sefer Torah (Yoreh Deah 281:3) and with respect to shechitah ( Remah ibid 2:9). Even if the mosser is otherwise an observant individual, and is meticulous in fulfilling his religious duties, because he demonstrates his rejection of the unity of all of Klal Yisroel (by his act of mesirah), he is treated as an akum (see Rambam, Hilchos Teshuva 3:11 and Nefesh Horav pg. 235).
If, however, one is guilty of a crime, and according to the law of the land deserves a prison sentence, or will be put to death, even though according to Jewish law his punishment would not be as severe, this is not mesirah (see Ritva to Bava Metsia 83b; Dvar Avraham vol. I pg. 8). One would still not be allowed to hand this individual over to the civil authorities because this is the equivalent of returning aveidas akum, which is usually not allowed. In an instance of avoiding a chilul Hashem, just like we would be obligated to return the aveidas akum, so too we would be obligated to hand over this individual (see Rama, Choshen Mishpat 388:12).
If the non-Jewish governmental authorities know that one Jew is concealing information about another Jew in order to save him from punishment, the Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 28:3) considers this a situation of chilul Hashem. Similarly, for many generations it was the practice that if a gneiva had occurred, and suspicion had fallen on the Jewish community, rather than allow that suspicion to hover over the entire community, the roshei hakehol, with the permission of the rabbonim, would inform the non-Jewish authorities who might possibly be the real ganav (Be’er Hagola, Choshen Mishpat 388:12).
Even if one is guilty of a crime and deserves a punishment according to the laws of the land, but due to anti-semetic attitudes he will probably suffer more than if he were a non-Jew; or, the (state) prison conditions are such that he will suffer at the hands of the other inmates (or at the hands of the guards) in a manner that is not proscribed by law, then turning the offender in would constitute mesirah, since his added suffering will be shelo kadin. However, mesirah is permitted in situations where one is a public menace (see Shach to Choshen Mishpat 388, 59), or if one is physically or psychologically harming another individual (for example, in instances of sexual abuse of children, students, campers etc., or spousal abuse) (see Shach to Choshen Mishpat ibid, 45).
The Jewish community does not have the ability to investigate these types of cases. Wherever there are raglayim ladavar that there seems to be a problem, the proper government agencies should be contacted to investigate.
Just as in other areas of halachah, one should consult a competent moreh horaah when faced with such a shayla. Just because one is knowledgeable in Yoreh Deah vol. I or one delivers a good pilpul shiur on sugyos in Nashim or Nezikin, it does not necessarily follow that that individual will be qualified to pasken on hilchos mesirah – lehakel or lehachmir.
[end of article]
Rav Moshe was talking about a situation where the secular authorities did not know that a crime had been committed and the perp was not a danger to the community. In such a case there is no duty to report the crime in secular law. It should also be noted that in the case of kashrut fraud supervisory organizations do use secular law to protect the integrity of their symbols. {end of Rav Schachter’s opinion]
IMHO, if a person would go to prison it is triply prohibited to refuse to testify as he is putting himself in danger, causing harm to his family as they will not have a source of parnassa. This is an example of a chassid shel shetut.
February 22, 2016 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1140189lesschumrasParticipantJoseph, all you do is tell unsourced, anecdotal fairy tales to support your cause. How many frum Jews convicted of civil crimes were wrongly convicted? How many went to jail for refusing to testify? What are your sources? In czarist Russia mesira was essential because no Jew could get a fair trial and punishment involved long sentences. The poskim who hold that mesira does not apply in the US is because, by and large, a Jew can be fairly triedin civil court, even more so in federal court I find it hard to believe that many Jews would go to jail to protect criminals, when there are reliable poskim to fall back on.
February 22, 2016 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1140190JosephParticipantLC: Rav Moshe Feinstein and Rav Mordechai Yaakov Breish, two examples of the many that can be cited, both repeated that the issur gamur brought in the Shulchan Aruch against mesira applies in America today, not just Czarist Russia of yesterday.
February 22, 2016 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1140191JosephParticipantAnd here Avi comes lecturing everyone else that they need to improve their bein adam l’chaveiro when immediately thereafter in the very same thread he created to lecture everyone he starts advocating to have Yidden thrown into gentile prisons with murderous punishments that have zero basis in the Torah and are the polar opposite to everything about Torah-true justice.
February 22, 2016 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1140192👑RebYidd23ParticipantIf you are so strongly against the American Prison system, how can you allow your fellow humans to be in it?
February 22, 2016 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1140193JosephParticipantRY23: The American prison system is corrupt and immoral. Not only far too many innocents are incarcerated in it, but even those guilty of many crimes do not belong in it but rather ought to face other types of punishments, whether corporal or monetary.
February 22, 2016 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #1140194Avi KParticipantOn the contrary, Joseph. If someone is a habitual criminal he is a danger to the community. Today victimology has progressed to the point where we know the traumatic effects even of crimes which in the past were considered non-violent such as burglary. A British victim support group found that “One in four burglary victims say they experienced mental health issues after a break-in, such as increased anxiety or symptoms of depression, according to new research from Victim Support and home security specialist ADT.
The study of 1,000 burglary victims, conducted to find out the real impact of the crime as part of the Take No More campaign, also revealed that one in four adults felt their ability to keep their family safe was affected by a break-in.”
IMHO, if Rav Moshe had known about this he would have ruled that a burglar, as well as other types of thieves and certainly robbers, has the din of a rodef of the community and that it is davka a mitzva to report him.
As for incarceration as a punishment, this is within the rights of the secular authorities t impose exta-halchic punishments in order to maintain public order (see Rambam Hilchot Melachim ch. 3 and Ran Derasha 11). One can agreee or disagree but it is their right.
Regarding modern Western countries, there are poskim, such as the Aruch HaShulchan, Rav Wosner, the Tzitz Eliezer, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rav Eliashiv (see the on-line article “Informing on Others for Violating American Law: A Jewish Law View for the citations) who do differentiate.
February 22, 2016 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1140195JosephParticipantGuess what, Avi? Our Torah says burglars are penalized monetarily not with a prison sentence. So regardless of what new age burgulary support groups opine, we stick with the Torah HaKedosha. Maybe someone should’ve let the RBS”O know at Har Sinai about the psychological impact of burglary victims so He could’ve included jail time in the Torah instead of mere financial recompense.
February 22, 2016 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1140196zahavasdadParticipantJoseph
The Torah doesnt say jailtime for murderers either, should we let them go since there is no torah punishment for jail and capital punishment is not usually an option
February 22, 2016 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1140197JosephParticipantThe Torah says murderers should be executed. Implement capital punishment. And install safeguards that when uncertain will rather find a defendant innocent than guilty.
February 22, 2016 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1140198MDGParticipant“The Torah says murderers should be executed…. “
If you want to require Torah criteria, then even the San Bernadino terrorists would not get capital punishment. I’m sure there were no kosher aidim, especially no warning and acceptance.
There are no judges with real Smicha, and there is no Sanhedrin of 71 sitting in the Lishkat Hagazit (which is required for a court of 23 to carry out capital punishment).
February 22, 2016 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1140199Avi KParticipantGuess what, Joseph? Our poski? say that the secular authorities may impose any punishments they deem necessary to maintain public order. This is known as mishpat hamelech. Regarding Jewish criminals see Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mispat 389:12 with Rema:
?? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???”? ?????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????: ???: (??”? ??’ ??”? ?”?) ?? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????”? ?? ????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????”? ??? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ?? ???? ?? (???”? ????????):
March 6, 2016 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #1140200☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantChumras in bein adam l’chaveiro I’ve noticed (very partial list, in no particular order):
Giving tzedakah when not required al pi din.
Even when required al pi din to give, giving more than the minimum.
Filling up the washing cup for the next person in line.
Inviting needy Shabbos guests.
Giving chizuk to those in need.
Giving (requested/desired) advice to those in need.
Hatzolah.
Bikur Cholim (private, and organizations).
Free tutoring/help learning.
Store owners giving refunds when neither required nor good business policy.
Contractors doing a few small extras for no extra charge (not to gain more business).
Aveilim being mevater on the amud when not required.
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