How Can A Wife Be Yotzei Matanos Levyonim

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  • #602288

    sushee
    Member

    How can a wife be yotzei matanos levyonim (or even shaloch manos for that matter), since all money and possesions she holds is really halachicly owned by her husband?

    Does her husband have to give her the money (or food) al tnai she should own it, in order for her to have what to give?

    Can the husband give matanos levyonim (and shaloch manos) on her behalf?

    I am assuming a woman has a chiyuv in both these Purim mitzvos, correct? Or does mitzvah she’zman grama come into play here?

    #856715

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Her husband can give for her, and she will be Yotze via the din of Eved Canaani and/or Zachin.

    #856716

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I dunno. What does the halacha say?

    #856717

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I am assuming a woman has a chiyuv in both these Purim mitzvos, correct?

    Assuming? Assumption makes a donkey out of you and umption.

    #856718

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Women are chayav in matanos l’evyonim. See OC 694:1; MB ad loc 1.

    Regarding mishloach manos, see Rema OC 695:4 that a woman is chayav. But see MB cites Magen avraham that the minhag is that women don’t send and are perhaps yotzei when the husband sends on her behalf, but that we should be machmir and do so anyway. (Is the magen avraham talking about matanos l’evyonim also?)

    Also note in rema there that a man should not send mishloach manos to a woman, nor a woman to a man. The reason is that a man might send to an almanah, and there might be a safek kiddushin. Interesting. (Magen avraham says it is a ch’shash of ???????, and does not apply to matanos l’evyonim which is money.)

    #856719

    sushee
    Member

    Gavra, does the husband have to give in addition to his own to be yotzei her, or is she yotzei with the same mataznos the husband is yotzei himself with?

    Also, how does mitzva she’zman grama work on this?

    #856720

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Also, how does mitzva she’zman grama work on this?

    mitzvas asei sh’zman grama is a rule for d’oraisoh’s (and even there not much of a rule, given its several exceptions). The rabanan who made each d’rabbanan decided separately whether to apply it to women. The purim mitzvos expressly apply to women.

    #856721

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavra, does the husband have to give in addition to his own to be yotzei her, or is she yotzei with the same mataznos the husband is yotzei himself with?

    AYLOR.

    IMHO, a minimum of 4 perutos should be given (as per Popa’s MB).

    mitzva she’zman grama doesn’t apply to Purim at all.

    #856722

    Sam2
    Participant

    Sushe: It doesn’t. Women are Chayav in Kol Mitzvos Hayom, even those that are Z’man Grama because Af Hein Hayu B’oso Hanes (Safek).

    #856723

    big deal
    Participant

    Poppa: Is Mishloach Manos part of the 7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach or are you perhaps “assuming” women are jews 🙂

    #856724

    Logician
    Participant

    A women’s possesions are not owned by the husband, he just has the rights to their use.

    Why is this more difficult than every mitzvah which requires “lachem” ?

    And as the husband is required to give her “mezonos”, why should the ability to fulfill this mitzvah not be included ?

    #856725

    Sam2
    Participant

    Logician: Not true. Ma Shekan’sa Isha Kana Ba’alah (Gittin 77b and other places).

    #856726

    sushee
    Member

    Logician: I believe the possesions she owned prior to marriage he has rights to without ownership, but anything she earns or gets during marriage he owns.

    #856727

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    since all money and possesions she holds is really halachicly owned by her husband?

    Of course, that’s not universally true either.

    She has the option of saying “I’ll keep my money and support myself” — which, given the state of things in portions of the yeshivish world, would be a good deal for her.

    And, lastly, it’s *her* option. He can’t unilaterally override her decision to do this.

    The Wolf

    #856728

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    A women’s possesions are not owned by the husband, he just has the rights to their use.

    I think you might be confusing property she bring into the marriage (which follows the rule you mentioned) with money she earns *in the marriage* which follows the general rule of belonging to the husband (unless she chooses to keep her earnings, as described above).

    The Wolf

    #856729

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    A women’s possesions are not owned by the husband, he just has the rights to their use.

    Correct, but she can’t give them away.

    Why is this more difficult than every mitzvah which requires “lachem”?

    Women are not chayav in lulav.

    #856730

    computer777
    Member

    A woman has a right to release her husand from his obligation to support her, and her earnings and possessions then remain her own.

    #856731

    sushee
    Member

    And if she (like probably over 99% of wives) never told her husband not to support her and she’ll keep her earnings, how will she give anyone ML or SM, considering that she owns nothing (and assuming she didn’t bring any possesions from prior to marriage) to give away?

    #856732

    computer777
    Member
    #856733

    computer777
    Member

    Sushe: I don’t know the % of wives who release their husbands from their obligation, but I’m sure it’s much less than 99%.

    Furthermore, for some strange reason, women are not told they have this option.

    #856734

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    sushe:

    Assuming that her husband doesn’t want to give for her? A mishna in Nedarim:

    ????? ???? ?????, ???? ???? ??? ???? ????–???? ??, ??? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ????, ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???, ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ????.

    #856735

    Logician
    Participant

    She receives money for her living expenses. Why is this different ?

    Yes, but matzah is a question, for example.

    #856736

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    As an FYI, that is talking about Mishloach Manos, but the issues with Kinyanim are the same.

    Why can’t he use Eved Cannani? There should be no requirement to be Zoche to someone else.

    #856737

    Logician
    Participant

    I don’t know why I got hung up about “lachem”.

    A women must make kiddush. As wine is not part of her usual diet, must the husband provide her with some ? I would think so. Why should this need be different ?

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