April 30, 2012 12:21 am at 12:21 am #603171
My brother was rejected from 5 high schools so far! What’s his horrible terrible secret? He’s a little shy, a litle quiet, not the top of the class, sweet and nice, does what he is told. Apparently he is not fit for anywhere! He is too smart for the slow yeshivos, and way too frum and nice for OTD yeshivos. How can these principals reject him based on just that? If he were OTD there would be tons of places for him! If he were chas veshalom special ed or actually learning disabled, there would also be many options! Why is he falling between the cracks? I know that many other boys are also facing the same problem, little 9th graders have to travel hours away to find a place to go learn torah,or they beg, plead and scream like beggars to be let in. How can this be allowed?
Where is our sense of achrayus?
People are so worried these days about kids off the derech. Here’s a question for one of those kiruv panels. How does a young, impressionable child feel when he is told by every school in town, “You don’t belong here!” If he is told by frum society that he is not wanted, why should he stay?
And I’m sure many of our dear OTD teens asked themselves that question.April 30, 2012 1:58 am at 1:58 am #872830writersoulMember
You’re really, really right. Yeshivos have always wanted the intelligent, personable boys, and when the plight of OTD or nearly-OTD boys came to light, a plethora of yeshivos opened up for them. Now, all those boys without a head exploding with brains and lots of spunk, but also without OTD tendencies, are left out in the cold.
My cousin had nearly the same problem, except that he actually was smart, but there were so many geniuses in his grade that compared to them, he looked average, leading many yeshivos in the area to think he wasn’t qualified. He ended up going out of town.
The problem is that yeshivos don’t want it to be known that they’re catering to “sug beit” boys. Of course, having a top-tier yeshiva is great, and having a yeshiva for OTD boys makes you feel good about yourself, but the boys in the middle? They’ll contaminate by sug alef yeshiva!
Girls are lucky (?) enough not to have the problem in the same way— for them, it’s more of a “how rich/frum is your father?” thing.April 30, 2012 2:47 am at 2:47 am #872831
This problem is widespread. There are hundreds of bochurim and girls out of yeshivos who are mainstream (not OTD). These children initially cry and beg, face continued rejections, and eventually settle in to despair. Many become rebellious, having not “dropped out”, but have been “pushed out”. Our yeshivos and schools are not part of a system that must answer to a higher authority. They are competitive. Each one sees itself as having a specific mission, and proving education to a specific child is not included in that mission. I have yet to meet the menahel that states that he feels a responsibility to insure that a specific talmid gets into a yeshiva. The typical is that the menahel addresses the issue as “not my problem – let the parents deal with it”. There is now a new field of work – placement professionals. These are askanim that dedicate much of their waking hours to pushing yeshivos to accept the talmidim that are nowhere. They hear the continuous rejections.
There are usually valid reasons given. My classes are full (or overfull), and there’s no more room. It is the middle of the zman. If another yeshiva won’t accept him, why should he become my problem? Etc. If the menahalim that say this had a vested interest in that child, there would already be space, and the calendar date would not matter. It is an old discussion that today’s mosdos hachinuch do not address each and every talmid as an individual, feeling like a surrogate parent with the vested interest that this particular talmid succeed.
Having addressed the severity of the problem, it is noted that there are those in the inner circles of chinuch that have begun to address this issue in many different ways. Change does not happen overnight, but there are yeshuos in the making. With Syatta Dishmaya, the efforts of many askanim will succeed in bringing chinuch closer to the potential of no child left behind.April 30, 2012 4:37 am at 4:37 am #872832RABBAIMParticipant
1- are you being realistic with the applications? If he is not a top student dont apply to Riverdale or Philly
2- Thee are places for those not yet accomplished….. but if the Hashkafa is a little diff. than yours will YOU accept or reject.
3- What kind of place are you,looking for?April 30, 2012 5:12 am at 5:12 am #872833
I am going thru this exact matzav and it is heartbreaking. A weak Yeshiva often means less strict about frumkeit. And these yeshivas often have many boys who are not doing well, and not yet wanting to. Maybe if my son was living at home I could manage that, but not from a different state. It is exactly what you are saying. A ‘not-top’ boy who is weaker but not ‘weak enough’ and has strong hashkofos has NO place to go.April 30, 2012 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #872834menucha12Member
its a problem with chinuch system all the “okay” kids that are somewhere in the middle dont really have a good selection of choicesApril 30, 2012 12:12 pm at 12:12 pm #872835
There are many types of boys who fit into this “push out” category. Some are just not metzuyanim. Some are academically good or better, but struggle with any of several social issues. Sometimes the boy is a victim of bullying, in which it is typical that the bully is retained and the victim let go. I personally know boys in each of these situations. Sometimes the boy lacks the internal motivation to learn, and while compliant, lacks the “bren” that is expected. There are those who do not “tow the line” with regards to the chassidus and Rebbe of a particular chassidishe yeshiva. There is a parallel to this in more Litvishe yeshivos, as well.
The bottom line is that the Chazon Ish (who was niftar in the early 1950’s) stated that the initial mission of yeshivos after the holocaust was to transplant mosdos for Torah learning, which was to insure the tzibbur had this pillar of existence. But this had already been accomplished, and the mission needed now to focus on the yochid, the individual, to insure that each talmid was guided to their potential success. That dictate of the Chazon Ish appears to have been utterly ignored by most of what we identify as mainstream chinuch. When we have a talmid that needs the extra individual attention, the situation is perceived as “another headache”, or a drain on the yeshiva and its rebbeiim. These are the talmidim that get pushed out, to preserve the image of the yeshiva.
Much of the time, the kids that are pushed out are labeled as cancers that spread and destroy other boys. That justification is used continually, and is rarely true. But once a menahel says it, the boy is labeled, and this even justifies those menahalim that follow the pushed out boy with negative reports, preventing another yeshiva from accepting him.
I know I have just listed a stack of accusations. Trouble is, they are true and accurate. Instead of throwing dirt at chinuch, it is more effective to seek contacts with those in positions of authority, and gradually bring about change in how yeshivos address their mission in chinuch.April 30, 2012 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #872836BTGuyParticipant
Having worked in a few different yeshivos for various reasons, I just want to say a few things.
The reputation “on the street” about a given yeshiva is often different from what really goes on in the four walls on a given school day.
The labeling of boys goes into a territory which is anti-education. Boys dont come off the assembly line “good” or “bad” or “the right one” or “the wrong one”.
Some of the “standards” border or cross into gaiva.
Education is about developing young people; all of them.
Every young person is awesome and entitled to a great teacher to get to know them and work with them and develop them.
The positive to your brother’s situation is a matter of faith.
Regardless of the numbers of yeshivos you are talking about, on
a certain level, it just means they were not the ones entrusted to provide him with an education.
The school he will attend, iy”H, will be the right one where he will prosper because by accepting him, it shows they care about him.April 30, 2012 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #872837SacrilegeMember
Rabbi Zucker is opening a High School for the 2012/13 school year for this exact reason. Apply there.April 30, 2012 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #872838
The little I know – You bring up a good point about the label. Some kids are labelled to clarify, some kids are labelled by staff who have no clue that they are the ones who have inflicted so much pain on the child that that is the reason he is who he is in their class. And woe to the parent who tries to make that claim.
Sac -Rabbi Zucker? Who is he and where is he doing this?April 30, 2012 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #872839
ironpenguin – Yeshiva Shaarey Arazim in Monsey looks for good guys who aren’t necessary the best. They are able to bring out the best in Bochurim and sometimes these guys come out better than any so-called “Top Yeshiva”.April 30, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #872841SacrilegeMember
Rabbi Zucker has a Yeshiva for post Bais Medrash age boys. His Yeshiva is an option for boys who want learning with the college option. This year he is opening up a High School in Flatbush.April 30, 2012 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #872842
Health: for 23 k a year. They deserve it but where can I find that kind of money?May 1, 2012 2:02 am at 2:02 am #872843
Syag Lchochma – They do give scholarships for some. And don’t tell them you heard it on the net.May 1, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #872844
Health – internet? Who has internet? 🙂May 1, 2012 3:58 am at 3:58 am #872845
Of course a list of Class A vs. Class B yeshivos is not soemthing I’m going to post here, but there are PLENTY of yeshivos today for these boys. As someone posted above, don’t apply to riverdale or philly. As a rule, the older established yeshivos are the ones pursuing the better boys. MOST of the yeshivos opened in the last 10 years are not that type – and there are many.
I was associated with a yeshiva in E.Y. that catered to such boys, and i can think of 5-6 yeshivos that sent there off the top of my head.May 1, 2012 4:53 am at 4:53 am #872846lakewhutParticipant
I can relate to your brother. I was rejected from a few H.S. as well. rejection happens at life. some ppl experience it at school, some who are seeking jobs, and others experience it in their dating life. But I realized whatever yeshiva I went to was perfect for their respective times. I was in one h.s and 4 B.m. programs. some places are not meant to be. If your brother is self disciplined and falls into the right crowd yeshiva of far rockaway might be a good idea. Most ppl get acceptedMay 1, 2012 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #872847
Unfortunately we need to beware of those who would take advantage of the desperation families feel when they are struggling to find a yeshiva. From experience: there are those who would accept the otherwise rejected student with little fanfare, then throw him out shortly afterward and keep some of the registration money…..there are those who have a very weak or nearly absent academic program but market their school so that it sounds a good fit……in other words, beware those schools desperate for money who would take advantage of families with nowhere to go.May 1, 2012 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #872848emanParticipant
Try Shaarei Arozim in MonseyMay 1, 2012 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #872849mullyMember
The best thing is to try shaarey shomayim and shaarey dmaos! All the best!May 1, 2012 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #872850chaimboruchMember
When Yeshivas will care about the talmidim’s future and their yidshikeit, instead of their own Kavod, the world will change.
Till then its all about $$.
not that you dont have it, but they want to keep a top name with guys they think are the top.
Tell your brother– he will get into a yeshiva that is perfect for him, and in 10 years to look where all those guys are– chances are that you will all meet in Lakewood, and half of the guys will be in a worse off situation.
Good luck!May 1, 2012 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #872851
If you can do it -to learn with him at home, or arrange groups of people doing it with groups of so called ‘Home -Y’eshivah’ (and there is such a person which I know, in israel), and everybody will learn from you -how good will it be then.May 2, 2012 12:59 am at 12:59 am #872852
Sam: Did that with one of our boys and it was perfect. Not all my boys are good candidates, unfortunately. If I had three peers to keep him home with I would gladly put it in motion.May 2, 2012 5:58 pm at 5:58 pm #872853
Great! Great! wait while it gets developed IY’H. Thank youMay 3, 2012 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #872854
Thank you all for your suggestions and sympathy. Nothing has developed yet and it is getting frighteningly close to next year. I have to say though that this situation is definitely ideal for working on emunah, we seem to have realized painfully that only Hashem is in charge.
A few points – shaarei arazim is not what it used to be, it now consists of very difficult cases, not just “sug beis” as you put it but problem kids who are violent nad many who can’t live at home, not the place for a nice mentch.
Also, the same thing is going on with seminaries, my sister tells me that lots of girls were rejected and were forced to beg and plead or go to much worse seminaries because they were not rich, or yichusdik or smart enough. Apparently, some of these nice Bais Yaakov girls have no other option but to start working or college because noone wants them.
Sam – what do you mean by a home yeshiva? Do you mean home schooling?May 4, 2012 1:58 am at 1:58 am #872855aproudbygParticipant
My cousin told me they are opening a yeshiva in mineapolis this next year ( is that how you spell it)? I believe it is supposed to be a out and in town yeshiva and they are really trying to get kids, but they dont have so many! It sounds like they would really be welcome to accepting anybody, who would apply1 I hope this helped!!! good luckMay 4, 2012 4:52 am at 4:52 am #872856
ironpenguin -“A few points – shaarei arazim is not what it used to be, it now consists of very difficult cases, not just “sug beis” as you put it but problem kids who are violent nad many who can’t live at home, not the place for a nice mentch.”
I really can’t say your wrong because my relative left awhile ago. But one thing I’ll tell you is that it’s definitely worth the time to go and speak to the Menahel. They can also fill up and you can discuss any concerns you have about it changing with him. He is Not one of those Faker types. If you ask him point blank -you’ll get a straight answer. Don’t nix it until you speak to him yourself.May 6, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #872857
As someone who is involved with yeshivos, there is something wrong with this story. If this boy’s whole issue is that he’s “sug bet”, and just not particularly “impressive”, but a good boy, AND he did not try applying to “sug aleph” yeshivos, this does not make sense.May 6, 2012 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #872858
“Sam – what do you mean by a home yeshiva? Do you mean home schooling?”
I’ll correct it. Yeshiva at Home. Home schooling like you said!
I hope it will get developed eventually, I meant.
H’ashem should help.May 6, 2012 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #872859
Logician – you are correct that it does not make sens,e but it is so. The boys are not problem kids but when put down and not supported for long periods they become despondent and give up alot. When that happens they get reprimanded for having poor attitudes and not trying harder. Lots of talk AT them, not much listening TO them. So then they are not just weaker, but more fragile or more vulnerable. Once they become more vulnerable you have to be VERY careful who is interacting with them on a daily basis. And if you send your son away, you have to have some kind of trust before it is earned that he will be listened to, even though it couldn’t be accomplished right there in his “local school”. So you are correct that there is more to it, but these are regular, weaker kids who will be fine in a positive, healthy environment, and can fall apart ch”v in a less healthy environment. My child’s lack of choices are more about our lack of comfort/trust in the choice of mosdos, and having few options for weak learners with strong hoshkofos.May 7, 2012 1:02 am at 1:02 am #872860RABBAIMParticipant
Daven hard for Hashem to send you the right shaliach! If it is with the right intent and with pure objectivity in seeing solutions, you should find solutions on the way.May 7, 2012 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #872861
Right! D’avening is the only solution here.
S’yag L’chochma S’htikah.May 7, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #872862
“So you are correct that there is more to it, but these are regular, weaker kids who will be fine in a positive, healthy environment”
That’s right!May 7, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #872863
The discussion here is about kids that are NORMAL, not weaker. And for a wide variety of excuses, our yeshivos (that are constantly pressuring us to support them, even in hard times) are saying no. What these yeshivos are essentially doing is giving the ultimate rejection. We are not referring to any yeshiva who lacks the extra services refusing to accept a talmid that needs these. We are loking at the stark refusal to do the job they tell the world they fulfill by all their fundraising events. What blatant contradiction.
Often, the word is that there is no space. This is a lie more often than the truth. If the rejection occurred after classes were filled, it might be a valid excuse (maybe not a reason, but an excuse). But we are looking at early applicants that are turned down for arbitrary reasons. If only the philanthropists who support these mosdos would examine the admission practices and rebel against those who are so CRUEL, we might see some of these corrupt, egotistical, selfish, and sadistic attitudes change.May 7, 2012 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #872864
The discussion here is about kids that are NORMAL, not weaker.
Ouch! I hope you aren’t in chinuch.May 8, 2012 2:25 am at 2:25 am #872865
I meant it does not make sense practically. If the boy in question is truly a good boy, kust “unimpressive”, there are plenty of yeshivos that cater to him,and some do a fine job. Maybe you are appling to the wrong places.
Please, do more research – plenty of small places with less “name recognition”, that are davka NOT looking for “great” boys.May 8, 2012 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #872866Sam2Participant
Did anyone else here see the R’ Steinman video? Powerful words.May 8, 2012 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #872867
It is beyond impressive. I have waited long and hard to hear one of our gedolim call it what it is. The chinuch situation has deteriorated to where mosdos are more concerned with their “image” than with the mission of insuring that each and every talmid can grow to succeed in life as a ben/bas Torah. When these menahalim speak on behalf of their yeshivos, we blindly believe they are sacrificing for the public good. Since yeshivos are not part of a greater system but actually competing with others, they need to address how their yeshiva is “better” than another. So in their quest for exclusivity, the welfare of a talmid (or potential talmid) is neglected. Rav Shteinman is perfectly right – it’s all gaava.
It would be a good idea that Yeshivaworld provide the link to the Rav Shteinman video clip or to embed it on the site somewhere.May 8, 2012 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #872868americaisoverParticipant
ironpenguin: I am assuming you are not very wealthy, if you were we wouldnt be having this discussion as hed be in his 1st choice.May 8, 2012 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #872869
I hope Chofetz Chaim Foundation will focus on GAIVA for this year’s Tisha B’av video.May 8, 2012 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #872870
It was interesting in the video that the askanim did not seem to want to accept what the R”Y said….they kept re-phrasing the question about rejecting the children from the yeshiva, hoping to get the answer they wanted. The R”Y was already teasing them, “where should those children go, to America? to the moon?”.May 8, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #872871
Ezrat Hashem – That really cracked me up. How many times did the R”Y give an answer before they said, “So L’Maaseh what is the Rosh Yeshiva saying . . .”? And then the R”Y said,” Its sad, maybe they shouldn’t get married” Loved it!May 8, 2012 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #872872
What is this video that is being discussed?
Could someone give me a link?May 9, 2012 1:41 am at 1:41 am #872875twinkleSTARMember
Why wasn’t my post approved?!?!
iron penguin, it is a youtube movie, with the title
‘EVERY FRUM JEW MUST WATCH AND SEE WHAT ??? ?????”? ??????? ????”? SAYS !!!!!’May 9, 2012 2:23 am at 2:23 am #872876
In Eretz Yisrael its much worse. (again – here plenty of little yeshivos are popping up.)May 9, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #872878ajewfrommonseyParticipant
I have a son who is in the same matzav as the ironpenguin’s brother and i am sending him to Englewood. they have raised their level of bochurim to the type that fits your brother (and my son) and and have a dynamic 9th grade rebbe/sgan menahel (Rabbi Dworetsky). Check it out, hatzlocha!May 9, 2012 1:12 pm at 1:12 pm #872879Some Common SenseParticipant
I have spoken to the parents and they are good strong Litvish people and therefore are davening and saying tehillem. What else do you suggest?
Question: what happened to the oath we all swear at Har Sinai to be responsibile for each other especially in this Galus surrounded by ever increasing anti-Semitism?
Question: What happened to not throwing our children and making them OTD by the way they are treating through this process?
Question: What happened to these individuals, who push themselves as being role models, to actually being role models and ensuring that no child is told no and rather yes to their #2 or #3 option?
Question: What happened to the idea of Chillel HaShem in that we are treating our most treasured gift as rags for disposal if they “don’t fit in” or some other untangible rational?
A few thoughts to await your respond.
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