How could it be that one who picks up an idol acquires it? It's the goy's rshus!

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  • February 22, 2010 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #591269
    Talmid_lo_Chacham
    Member

    Isn’t it gezel? Lets see what we can dig up here from the Gemora.

    Mekor: Avodah Zorah 31b Gilyonei HaShas

    February 22, 2010 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #674827
    oomis
    Participant

    Would the Gemarah say that Rochel Emainu was a gazlanit?

    February 22, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #674828
    Talmid_lo_Chacham
    Member

    No, because the Gemora says the opposite of what I say. I am makshey on the sugya.

    An answer would be that because the laws of kniyah weren’t enacted yet, because they are midrobonon, and so Rochel Imainu wasn’t oiver on any tokonoh because the tokonoh didn’t exist yet.

    February 22, 2010 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #674829
    anuran
    Participant

    Depends on what you mean by “picks up”. Do you mean “picks up without knowing what it was”, “picks up to melt down in the foundry”, “picks up in a container full of unsorted storage locker contents”, “picks up to install in a temple dedicated to Something with tentacles” or something else? There are serious differences between all of these based on knowledge, intent and consequences.

    February 22, 2010 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #674830
    Talmid_lo_Chacham
    Member

    Picks up. No matter what intent. Even if he wants to be mevatel the avoidah zorah (which he can’t because a Yid can’t be mevatel a goy’s idol)

    February 23, 2010 6:26 am at 6:26 am #674831
    Talmid_lo_Chacham
    Member

    see Rosh Rosh HaShonoh Perek Gimel:9

    February 23, 2010 7:05 am at 7:05 am #674832
    Talmid_lo_Chacham
    Member

    He quotes there that an Avodah Zarah is muttar if it is crushed, like the ashes of an Ir Nidachas which can be used for covering the blood. Also a lulav from Avodah Zarah is muttar (not from Asheirah).

    He also says that there is a shitoh that if a Yid was mekaneh the avodah zarah unintentionally, with the intent to be mevatel the Avodah Zarah, he did not acquire it and one can be mevatel it.

    February 23, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #674835
    anuran
    Participant

    So….your answer to my question is that the question was worth asking. Intention and what one actually does do make important distinctions. And Avraham wouldn’t have to be executed for smashing the idols in his dad’s House O’ Dieties.

    February 23, 2010 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #674836
    Heshy
    Member

    Just wanted to mention that the Medrash Rabbah does refer to Rochel Emainu as a ganef or gazlanit (I don’t recall) based on the posik in chumash.

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