How did Rabbi Akiva die?

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  • #1272182

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    That is very interesting! And the first really good source anyone from either side has brought.

    #1272171

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    which is totally not the same thing as saying that it was good for people that they died in the holocaust. All it means is that given the choice, spritual death is worse than physical death. But the best is not to be given a choice and not to have any kind of death.

    #1272189

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Although I think that desiring to die al kiddush Hashem is not necessarily the same as davening to die al kiddush Hashem. I think that desiring to die al Kiddush Hashem is actually closer to what I was talking about when I said that one should strive to be on the level of dying al Kiddush Hashem as opposed to davening to actually die al kiddush Hashem.

    You can feel a desire to die al Kiddush Hashem without actually davening for it.

    #1272257

    Joseph
    Participant

    Vindication is sweet, isn’t it.

    #1272263

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Vindication is sweet, isn’t it.”

    meaning?

    #1272306

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    I dont have that source available
    If in fact it says whay is claimed. then Joseph you are vindicated
    (though I still disagree, Ill grant That youd take R’ Shlomo Wolbe’s opinion over mine. And certainly R’ Yonasson Eibeshitz Though again I havent seen it inside)

    #1272305

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    youre late to the party that has been said already
    and responded too

    #1272338

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Ubiquitin, first of all, shkoyach on being able to admit you may be wrong. (although I personally am still not convinced you are as per my last post, but since you don’t think the way I do about paradoxes, according to your way of thinking, you would have to say you are wrong if the source is correct).

    Second of all, you now have to concede that you were wrong about the more important point here. That is the fact that you misjudged Joseph and assumed that he didn’t really mean what he said.

    #1272361

    bmyer
    Participant

    “Huh? How could you say that?”
    meno: For EVERY jew that was not religious and wouldn’t have become (which was a lot) it was the BEST thing that could have ever happened to them!

    Also like LU said: ” Everything that happens is the best thing that can happen to everyone. ”
    Meaning themselves and/or the world…

    #1272363

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU
    “Ubiquitin, first of all, shkoyach on being able to admit you may be wrong. ”

    Not my first time.

    “That is the fact that you misjudged Joseph and assumed that he didn’t really mean what he said.”

    Lol. no of course Joeph doesn’t mean it. cmon I get that you are naive, but you think Joseph is on the level of Rabbi Akiva? you cant possibly be THAT naive.
    and please please please spare me that hair splitting that is sure to come that he believes it bit doesnt really believe it. yes yes I know.
    Stick around longer keep an open mind you will get more of a feel for how people work.
    Also if you are bored read through old “Joseph” threads he has appeared under many names with his shtick (when I first met him he was Lior i think there are several threads of lists of his aliases) Admittedly he may raise good points like this interesting discussion. That doesn’t mean he believes them.

    and is that really the more important point?

    #1272410

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ” but you think Joseph is on the level of Rabbi Akiva? ”
    what? lost you there… what does it have to do with being on the level of R’ Akiva. The discussion was about whether or not we are supposed to yearn for/daven for being killed al Kiddush Hashem. In the end you acknowledged that he was right, so how can you say he didn’t mean it?

    And I have read through a lot of old threads. I see no reason to believe that he doesn’t mean it.

    “and is that really the more important point?”

    Yes, it is. Being dan l’kaf zchus is one of the most important Mitzvos and probably the one that will bring Mashiach and the lack of which is keeping us in galus.

    #1272425

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “meno: For EVERY jew that was not religious and wouldn’t have become (which was a lot) it was the BEST thing that could have ever happened to them!”

    What? I would never differentiate between religious and non-religious Jews in a matter like this. For one thing, we don’t know who really is religious and who is not. There are many Mitzvos in the Torah and everyone has a different bechira level and we have no idea who is on a higher level than who. There can be people who are considered “non-religious” who are actually on a much higher level than some who are called “religious”.

    We do believe that Hashem controls everything in the world and that Hashem loves all us, religious or not, and therefore whatever He does to us is in our best interest. This applies to both religious and non-religious Jews.
    However, as I pointed out, I would be careful about the context in which I apply this concept. Of course, technically, it applies everywhere. But when you are talking about something like the holocaust, it is a concept that can’t be explained in one sentence, and therefore it is better not to say such things in a forum in which it would be impossible to explain what it means. Since it can easily lead to misconceptions.

    #1272522

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    “And I have read through a lot of old threads. I see no reason to believe that he doesn’t mean it.”

    Read through more
    Make sure you find all his old (blocked) screennames

    Being dan lekaf zechs is only when there is a kaf zechus. And this isnt not being dan lekaf zechus. There is nothing in my view bad about sparking a lively discussion by posting something exciting that you dont actually believe.
    Write this done on your computer, because you have a lot of trouble with it. dont believe everything you read on the internet.

    Its only bad when people take it seriously most people know not to

    #1272551

    RBZS
    Participant

    “Although I think that desiring to die al kiddush Hashem is not necessarily the same as davening to die al kiddush Hashem.”
    I hear your interesting chiluk, but we must realize that this was not just an abstract thought thrown out to us. The Ya’aros Devash goes through each berachah in Shemoneh Esrei and tell us what to be mechaven when we recite them.
    If he wrote this as one of the kavanos of Retzeh, and Rav Wolbe cited it in his section on Biurei Tefillah, then it certainly would seem that he is telling us to daven for it not just to desire it.
    Don’t you agree?

    #1272560

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    LU
    see here

    Shabbos soap: Liquid vs bar

    and the ensuing discussion
    hope that helps

    #1272743

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Oh no! I forgot to place the link the new way.
    Maybe like this it will only block my post.
    Im sorry all

    #1276975

    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Since nobody has yet provided the answer to the question, here it is:

    There is another story of Rabbi Akiva’s death in Rabbinic Literature. It appears in the Midrash Mishlei in Parsha 9.

    מעשה בר’ עקיבה שהיה חבוש בבית האסורים [ור’ יהושע הגרסי תלמידו היה משמשו ערב יו”ט נפטר ממנו והלך לביתו בא אליהו ועמד על פתח ביתו א”ל שלום עליך רבי א”ל שלום עליך רבי ומורי א”ל כלום אתה צריך א”ל כהן אני ובאתי להגיד לך שר”ע מת בבית האסורים מיד הלכו שניהם לבית האסורים ומצאו פתח שער בית האסורים פתוח ושר בית הסוהר היה ישן וכל העם שהיו בבית האסורים היו ישנים והשכיבו את ר”ע על המטה ויצאו מיד נטפל אליהו זכור לטוב וטלו על כתפיו וכשראה ר’ יהושע הגרסי כך אמר לאליהו רבי הלא אמרת לי אני אליהו כהן וכהן אסור לטמא במת א”ל דייך ר’ יהושע בני חס ושלום שאין טומאה בצדיקים ואף לא בתלמידיהם והיו מוליכין אותו כל הלילה עד שהגיעו לטרפילון של קסרין כיון שהגיעו לשם עלו שלש מעלות וירדו ירידות ונפתח המערה לפניהם וראו שם כסא וספסל ושלחן ומנורה והשכיבו את ר”ע על המטה ויצאו וכיון שיצאו נסתמה המערה ודלקה הנר על המנורה, וכשראה אליהו כך פתח ואמר אשריכם צדיקים ואשריכם עמלי תורה ואשריכם יראי אלהים שגנוז וטמור לכם ומשומר לכם מקום בגן עדן לעתיד לבוא אשריך ר”ע שנמצא לך מלון ערב בשעת מיתתך לכך נאמר אף ערכה שלחנה] 613

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44204&st=&pgnum=57

    #1276987

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Wow, PAA, long time no see!

    That’s not a different account of how Rabi Akiva died; it’s additional information surrounding his death.

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