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The mods do not require proof. Could they be Iranian bots? Or, perhaps, BDS activists in disguise? The vitriol they spew is very suspicious.
The anti-Zionists posters are the *only* Jews. The Zionist apikorsus spewed is anti-Jewish are certainly from either Goyim or outright heretics.
How do we know that pro-Zionist posters are Jewish? Could they be Evangelical Christians? The lack of Kavod HaTorah and regard for Gedolim they spew is very suspicious.
Over the past ten years, dozens of Jews in Eretz Yisrael
have been revealed to be paid agents of Iran.According to articles published here on Yeshiva World News
and Matzav (dot) com, many of these paid agents of Iran
have been revealed to be yeshivish Chareidi Jews —-
because that it what happens when yeshivas constantly
teach hate against “the Zionists, who are our enemies”.We cannot ignore the possibility that anti-Zionists
here on YWN are paid agents of Iran.I have the same question about Neturei Karta, although it does also apply to our resident trolls. How do we know they are Jewish? They’re definitely on Iranian and Qatari payrolls, but are they even Jewish?
Take some of its leaders, such as “Rabbis” Yisroel Dovid Weiss, Dovid Feldman, Yitzchok Deutsch, or any of its other prominent stochastic terrorists. Does anyone know who they are and where they come from?
Take a shul in Turkiye, for example. These shuls do exist, although not under the best of circumstances, so if you show up there unannounced, don’t know anyone, and have never communicated with them before, they’ll want assurance you don’t pose a threat. Generally in such circumstances, they’d ask you to recite a prayer in Hebrew to demonstrate your likelihood of being Jewish.
Meanwhile, Weiss and friends protest publicly on Shabbos. There’s a video of someone asking them if they know Aleinu, or one of several other prayers. They do not know it, which makes it all the more suspicious.
The main suspicion, though, is where they come from. Does anyone know of a firsthand source saying they knew any of its prominent members before joining? In which case, a few questions:
1) Who were Yisroel Dovid Weiss’s parents? Names please; referring to them as “Hungarian-born Holocaust survivors” is way too generic and doesn’t answer the question. Or any of these rabble rousers, who are they?
2) Which yeshiva did any of them go to? Which shul did their parents attend?
3) What were their jobs before NK? No prominent member of that terrorist organization has become prominent before age 40+. What did they do before that, and how did they get connected with NK?My criticisms and doubts apply primarily to the branches in the US and UK. The Meah Shearim branch (e.g. Toldos Aharon and affiliated groups) is certainly Jewish, and their opposition to Zionism is more based on Messianic eschatology than politics. But for the ones based in Monsey and Stamford Hill, it’s mighty suspicious. So I ask, does anyone know the origins of these people?
The Torah and its gedolim that they cite are recognized and known.
A better question is how do we know that the pro-idol posters are Jewish. After all, chazal tell us that one of the three traits by which a Jew is known is mercy/good to the merciful, something the Zionists very much lack and with which their idolater followers seem to have no problem.Anything COULD be. But Jewish Satmar people like him do exist, so our assumption should be that he is real. Besides Iranian agents probably would want to target more worthwhile avenues, such as Christian’s or leftists.
How do we know that anti-Zionist posters are Jewish? The mods do not require proof. Perhaps they are Christian evangelicals in disguise?
UJM said:
The anti-Zionists posters are the *only* Jews.
__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:No offense intended, sir; but that comment
could only be made by a Rasha Gamur
whose mind is completely filled with hate.I plead with you to do teshuvah, preferably before Rosh HaShanah.
I have retracted a very small number of my comments,
because I was asked to by people in this Coffee Room.If I did it, then you can do it too.
The most suspicious part is that they claim to follow their gedolim, but when we here have a discussion on an issue, they are unable to go back to the gedolim and clarify the issues. We still do not know whether yeshivos have statistics on OTD in the army, or what was current path to non-Jewish government in EY and scores of other issues. I do not recall anyone saying on any topic here – I went back to Rosh Yeshiva and he clarified …
@always_ask_questions
I ask rabbunim questions all the time and I don’t remember that ever being request or the subject of debate around here.. I’m not sure what you are talking about.This whole conversation is bizarre, as who cares the identity of the writer on an internet forum, any G-d fearing Jew is only interested in Torah and not the messenger. More than that, no G-d fearing person is going to take ANY of the sources here at face value BECAUSE identities aren’t known and no one should learn Torah from an unknown source.
Again, this whole conversation is bizarre, as the argument against Zionism has nothing to do with the authority of Gedolim, per se, rather it has to do with the authority of Torah as given at Sinai. If they teach that Torah, good. If a Gadol, chas v’shulem, teaching something against that Torah, it’s meaningless vis-a-vis the understanding of a sugya.
Gedolim are only as good as the Torah they teach.
Here is a case to analyze, as it was temporary:
when Russia Ukraine war started, there were a number of posters recounting Khmelnitsky and other events from Ukrainian history – some of it was from regular posters who suddenly acquired knack for historical studies, but only from russian perspectives; others were from new posters. This was at the time, when russian trolls were playing in comments to major publications, even paid ones, like WSJ. Hard to say, to what degree YWN was included into that campaign, or it was simply propaganda from other places infected the feeble minds. Maybe mods can check IPs of those new posters.The fanatical hate-filled anti-Zionists claim to follow the Gedolim,
but they repeatedly chose to IGNORE accurate quotes from:Avnei Nezer, Rabbi Moshe Sherer,
Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz,
Rabbi Avraham Yitzchok HaKohen Kook,
Rabbi Yaakov Kamenetsky, and others.They only listen to the Gedolim who agree
with their stupid suicidal rodaif beliefs.They are not logical and not sincere.
I suspect that they receive payments from
Hamas or the Ayatollahs of Iran.
They endanger millions of Jewish lives.@Avi K:
Your idolatry seems to be confusing you. It is the Torah that they are following, not just chareidi gedolim.
@SQUARE_ROOT:
Zionism is heresy. Therefore, anyone who proudly claims to be a Zionist while also knowing this obvious reality, as mentioned by the greatest Torah sages for over a century, is believing in heresy. And anyone who denies even one letter of the Torah is a heretic, and therefore not biChlal amisecha, never mind believing that the Torah should CH”V be turned into a Zionist mush. I wouldn’t have phrased it as did UJM, but that’s probably what he meant.@Mods:
I think this thread should be closed due it being silly to begin with and there seems to be leitzanus by some.But they are a distinct minority, yet somehow they feel confident enough to call those that follow the vast majority of Torah scholars “idolaters”!
You can’t just say my position is absolutely right and anyone who questions it is a “heretic” or even a “idolater” because I have a Gadol backing me if the other side has 10 times more Gedolim backing them!@joe-blow
you sound just like a Reform “Jew”@joe blow:
Zionist idolaters are a distinct minority, yet they feel confident enough to ignore the vast majority of Torah scholars due to Zionist idolatry.
The Zionist idolaters just say their position is absolutely right despite having no gadol backing them!There. Fixed that for you.
somejew > I don’t remember that ever being request or the subject of debate around here.
First, I’d like to know whether your rabonim hold by the shevuos as halakha.
If they do, what would be their preferred position say in 1920s. One of your haverim suggested to keep EY in the hands of Esav. Several of us objected based on historical evidence that Esav retreated from the colonies and most of Middle East went through a lot of savagery in the last 80 years. There is also a question what would have happened with European survivors; Sephardim; Soviet Jews. At best, they would have gotten to the safe shores of democracies where they would have suffered same rates of assimilation as other Jew there. Again, this is not a shailah on the rabbonim who were against Zionsts at the time, those views had good sevorahs behind them. It is a question for rabbonim who already know what happened after.
@always_ask_questions
every kosher rav must ” hold by the shevuos as halakha” because is it a gemara mefurash that has no one cholek, as we see in the numerous poskim rishonim and acharonim who paskin the shulosh shevios.You cannot find even one charedi Gadol who says the shevios are not haluche, including the Avnei Nezer, the Netziv (even according to the forged letter), etc. Even, l’havdil, kook shr”y admitted they are binding. And this is all because we are not allowed to add or detract from the Torah Hashem gave us, so claiming that one can ignore the shevios as “not haluche” would be an absurd point of kefira that even Kook couldn’t leverage to fool the am harutzim he taught. (and this – rejecting even one letter of the Torah – is exactly one of the points of kefira of the “dati leumi” heretical religion borne from kooks foolish students).
somejew, all I asked was for you to ask a current-day legit rav about how we see those choices in 1920s from the point of our knowledge of history – from holocaust to middle east politics to the fate of Sephardim and Rusim, and how this reflects the shevuos.
you are entirely focusing on what they said then. This is like we were to evaluate success of Moshe’s mission in Mitzrayim after the first 3 makkos. No, we are looking at the whle yetziyas mitzrayim and even on the centuries after that to see the full impact. Same here – let’s look at those events and see it as much as we can through our knowledge. So far, we have a couple of suggestions from the posters here – Brits could hold it; Hashem would have figured it out… I am wondering what the rabbis of our generation say, especially those whom you are learning from.
somejewiknow said:
“You cannot find even one charedi Gadol who says the
shevios are not haluche, including the Avnei Nezer,”__________________________________________
MY RESPONSE:This false belief has been refuted many times,
right here in the YWN Coffee Room.But you stubbornly refuse to listen.
If I wanted to, I could easily supply facts and logic
to refute your false statement, but I will not do that,
because I know from experience that you NEVER LISTEN!!AAQ:
If not for the wicked Zionists, those “survivors” would not have gone through the Holocaust in the first place. And the sephardim would have remained living peacefully AS JEWS in their home countries rather than being shmaded (at least three generations now) by the Zionists. And on and on.@somejew
@AAQsomejew >
…. every kosher rav must ” hold by the shevuos as halakha” because is it a gemara mefurash that has no one cholek, as we see in the numerous poskim rishonim and acharonim who paskin the shulosh shevios.You cannot find even one charedi Gadol who says the shevios are not haluche,
—-Rambam, Shulchan Aruch and Tur ALL hold that shevios are not lehaloche
[clear words of avnei nezer in YD 454:49-52]somejew holds himself of the caliber worthy to argue with those giants ….
interesting ….
.
.> “You cannot find even one charedi Gadol
This is a more accurate statement than ““You cannot find even one Gadol”. So, you gained in your growth in honesty, I give you a brocha for the next year to grow in shalom and kavod so that you stop dividing chachamim by their political affiliation or by the presumptions thought that only talmidei chachamim that agree with you are the right ones. I suggest first look at who is a talmid chacham by an objective criterion – level of learning, respect from other talmidei chachamim (that includes those who disagree with each other, or those who are respected by only some of the other talmidei chachamim), and then take in all the opinions of the selected group. Shana Tova.
katan > If not for the wicked Zionists, those “survivors” would not have gone through the Holocaust in the first place. And the sephardim would have remained living peacefully AS JEWS in their home countries rather than being shmaded (at least three generations now) by the Zionists. And on and on.
I don’t think this has historical basis (other than saying without a proof that Hashem made it a punishment for XYZ):
– Nazis and Commies achieved their power without any connection to Zs (arguably, assimilated Jews played role in both countries, but this relates more to Reform and socialists, not Zionists)
– So when so many Jews perished after following advice from their Rabbis to stay in Europe, it is quite a hutzpah to blame other movements for what happened. Those rabbis should have clarified: you are all tzadikkim and if you stay you will perish because of the zionists who urge you to leave.
– we discussed sephardim already when we discussed arab countries. Yes, at the time, one could hold a view that it would be possible to live peacefully under Hashimites and similar kings. History showed that most of these countries went through periods of socialist and islamist brutality. So, syrian and Iraqi Jews would have gone through the prison in Damascus (when that prison was opened this year, there were people searching for hidden rooms, refusing to believe that all those who were not yet found there are not alive …) and ISIS (look what happened with yazidis, for example). So, all those sephardim were destined to live through this horror. So, maybe Moroccans did not benefit.
– Polish Jews after WW2, if they were not to find a place to go, would have been sent back to Communist Poland
– Soviet Jews who were already prosecuted by the time Israel was created, so not Israel’s fault, would have been fighting now in Russia-Ukraine war, walking on the battlefield hunted by drones.@AAQ
aaq > … I suggest first look at who is a talmid chacham by an objective criterion – level of learning, respect from other talmidei chachamim (that includes those who disagree with each other, or those who are respected by only some of the other talmidei chachamim), and then take in all the opinions of the selected group.
—
‘objective criterion’ , yes . but lav davka your criteria ….
I prefer , [and you should too] the shulhan aruch’s criteria anfd there is an important one there , which you omitted .
hilchot talmud torah in YD – a t’ch who is lacking in yirat shamayim , is disqualified from being a talmid chacham
a talmid chacham who does not use all his spare time for learning is disqualified.
it does not mention anything there about respect .
this was your private addition …
.
.HaKatan, 2025: “If not for the wicked Zionists, those “survivors” would not have gone through the Holocaust in the first place.”
A Jewish joke, set around 1943: The Germans and their collaborators are forcing a transport of Jews into a gas chamber at Auschwitz. Someone in that group, moments away from death, yells the Shema. Another Jew, also walking in, interrupts and yells, “Quiet! You’ll provoke the Umos Ha’Olam!”
HaKatan has referred to survivors in quotes. Implying that they call themselves and are referred to as survivors, but are not. Just another Jewish antisemite who believes the Holocaust was our fault. To quote a satirist (I can’t recall whom), “We Jews have been kicked out of 109 countries. Isn’t it time we take a look in the mirror?”
HaKatan, no. We haven’t been kicked out of 109 countries, but your ilk believes it was our fault. Jews are entirely unpersecuted, and everything done was a consequence of a specific action, correct?
Anyone interested can reread my post about HaKatan on a previous thread, linked at https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/uk-france-and-canada#post-2441011. Believing in Hitler’s lack of free will is Avodah Zarah. Believing that we provoked him is Jewish self-hatred. HaKatan, for all your concern about התגרות באומות, have you never been concered with התגרות בישראל? If you want to believe Zionism has nothing to do with you, don’t obsess over it. You and the Zionists you describe are two sides of the same coin.
We can all repent! גמר חתימה טובה!
foundational to yiddishkeit (ikkarei eminah) is the firm belief that everything that happens to a Jew is with perfect Divine providence and that every difficulty – lo alaini – is both because of our sins and meant to arouse our tshiva.
Your comment is full of heresy from top to bottom.
@chiefshmerel:
“HaKatan has referred to survivors in quotes. Implying that they call themselves and are referred to as survivors, but are not. Just another Jewish antisemite who believes the Holocaust was our fault”No, that was not at all the implication. The quotes were to refer to those survivors from that post, not to imply otherwise.
I won’t bother quoting the rest…
The culpability for the Holocaust is obviously on those who committed that mass-murder, namely the Nazis and their accomplices. That’s obvious.
Regarding how it could have happened, the answer obviously involves – among other factors – sichar viOnesh, as that is how Hashem conducts Klal Yisrael. If you choose to deny that, then perhaps you might wish to use these days to repent from that heresy.
Believing that the Zionists provoked Hitler in the name of world Jewry is simply historical fact, not “Jewish self-hatred”. Speaking of Jewish self-hatred, that would, of course, be Zionism.
yankel, a fair question on who is a talmid chochom. Your definition are the right ones. There are mentions of T’Ch that describe his behaviors, which can be considered definitions. For example, if you see a T’Ch going somewhere inappropriate at night, you don’t have to tell him in the morning because he surely did teshuva. So, this means, T’Ch may do an aveirah, but he reviews his actions daily.
The problem with these definitions is that they require close observation and our own judgment. Sometimes, you can make the judgment from the stories. for example, about spare time and priorities, there is a story about R Soloveitchik getting into analysis of a Rambam during a Thursday afternoon class when he was usually flying from YU home to Boston. When someone reminded him that it is time for him to fly home, he said – nobody is leaving this room until we understand this Rambam …
So, correlation between different chachomim seems like a reasonable method to me. There is nothing new here. This is how haskamos work!
This method relies on halochos – how one T’Ch should relate to another. And it is observable – there are witnesses that saw meetings and talks, and books where Rabbis mention or give haskama.katan > Believing that the Zionists provoked Hitler
I am not sure what the source of this historical fact, but if you think of East European Jewry, the prosecution already started with the russian revolution, with so many Jews either killed or prosecuted, Yiddishkeit destroyed, remaining Jews in total assimilation. Was it also provoked by zionists?
I think it is less on our minds because of the horrors of Shoah after that, same way as WW1 is rarely mentioned after WW2. Imagine Hitler not killing the Jews during WW2 and no Zionists at hand. Most of Eastern European Jews would end up under Stalin, their fate would be same as rest of Soviet Jews – arrests of all religious and intellectual leaders; full assimilation and mass intermarriage. From the point of view of Yiddishkeit, this would be almost same outcome.
@somejewiknow, so Jews have been expelled from 109 countries? And entirely through our fault? Wow… I feel like this is Elon Musk’s X.
I’m not denying that everything means something. It’s heresy and Avodah Zarah to claim that any single individual knows the cause of everything. Assuming that is a single cause. לא קם בישראל כמשה. And he had plenty of questions as well on why bad things happen to good people.
/s I see we have some members of the CR who can answer that! Where do I sign up for brachos? /sCC’ing @HaKatan here as well:
Of course the two of you have the answer to everything. The Gedolim have explained it. Yet you don’t source most of your inflammatory comments about Zionists. To Judaize a famous non-Jewish expression, the Chazon Ish said you shouldn’t believe everything you read on the Internet. Theodicy is above my level and above yours. One can believe G-d is just without understanding literally every component; literally anyone who ever lived would go crazy before understanding. Unless you think you can, because you think you’re greater than Moshe Rabbeinu.
But in any case, why do you cherrypick quotes from multiple Gedolim and ignore everything else they say? No one here quotes the Chazon Ish in determining Halachic measurements. In other words, you don’t care for what he says when it doesn’t deal with validating your views.
Lastly, if you can cherrypick Gedolim and their quotes, why can’t I? Oh, right, because Rav Kook went OTD. /skatan > …. the Zionists provoked Hitler in the name of world Jewry ….
—
factually wrong .
the zionist organization did not provoke hitler .
the zionists in the 1930’s collaborated with hitler
not out of sympathy , from either side , I must note .
but because of overlapping interests ….
both hitler and the zionists wanted the jews out of germany
for totally different reasons , they both had the same goal .
they did not boycott hitler
it was the american reform jews who boycotted hitler
—In the United States a boycott committee was established by the American Jewish Congress (AJC) …. [wikipedia]
….. at the same time, Zionists were brokering the Haavara Agreement with Germany to open trade in exchange for sending German Jews to Palestine. When German emigrants arrived in Palestine, they would receive a portion of their capital in the form of goods and the rest in pounds sterling. The benefits for both sides were numerous. First, the agreement would drastically increase German Jewish emigration, fulfilling a central plank of the Nazi Party platform. It would also further the goals of the Zionists, who could help populate Palestine with prosperous immigrants whose money could vastly improve the struggling economy. Likewise, the capital purchases of German imports would be a boon for the depression-ravaged German economy at a time when the Nazi regime had promised to return the Reich to economic prosperity. [wikipedia]
.HaKatan-
“Regarding how it could have happened, the answer obviously involves – among other factors – sichar viOnesh, as that is how Hashem conducts Klal Yisrael. If you choose to deny that, then perhaps you might wish to use these days to repent from that heresy.”
And maybe the message is in the other direction. As the Meshech Chochma famously said, when Jews started replacing Jerusalem with Berlin, it would lead to catastrophe. And maybe it’s not just Berlin… but Poland and Lithuania too. The Zionist movement was growing, we were afforded the opportunity to return to EY, but too many Jews from all religious background ignored the call… from the seculars in German universities to the Talmidei Chachamim in Polish shtetls. Those became their Jerusalem. And HaShem had to send us a terrible wakeup call.
You are correct that the Haavara Plan was a great success for Zionism as was the Holocaust and the ongoing Zionist international fueling of intifada and general antisemitism have all brought riches and growth the to zionist state at the pithy cost of just rivers and rivers of jewish blood.
The zionists acted then as they do now exactly like the nazi regime, stealing from Jews whatever they can and forcing those jews to work or die as servants to the state. The only distinction was that the Nazi amulek leveraged mass physical death to bring spiritual death whereas the zionist amulek leverage mass spiritual death to bring physical death.
[The rest of your “history” is absurd, ignoring the rampant political activism of zionists before and during the Holocaust to stop Jewish emigration to any other country besides Palestine, preferring European Jews die considering it a win-win: less religious Jews and more international sympathy for zionism. It is worth reviewing “Ten Questions to the Zionists” by R. Michoel Ber Weissmandel]
Avi, sometimes ideology clashed with human interest. Zionists wanted to develop kibutzim first, both for the lifestyle ideology and land. That enterprise was losing money and required constant support. That came at the expense of developing manufacturing in Tel Aviv that could have created additional jobs. This made many German Jews hesitant to come.
simcha613:
The proof that your fantasy is incorrect is that all the gedolim were vehemently against Zionism, and many were also vehemently against even the non-Zionist Chovevei Tzion that preceded it. Rav Hirsch stated that what Rabbi Kalischer (who founded but later retracted his support for CT) considered a “great mitzvah”, he Rav Hirsch considered “no small aveirah”. And that without the Zionist kefirah and replacement theology of changing Judaism into secular godless idolatrous land-based nationalism which was the case of the Zionist “opportunity” to which you referred.No, “we” were not all given that opportunity. That is given only with the coming of Moashiach. Until then, while some may go, it is assur for Jews to en masse go up to Eretz Yisrael, as per the gimmel shevuos which are, of course, fully in effect according to all. So, that’s obviously not what Rav Meir Simcha meant with Berlin replacing Jerusalem, of course.
Finally, look at what the Zionists have done over the past century. According to their official stats, 40% of all Jews in Israel today are completely secular, and 35% are “traditional/Conservative”. That’s 75% of the JEWISH population there. That’s after the intense teshuva movement that many have been valiantly attempting despite the ongoing immense Zionist shmad. No, it was not a very good idea to join the Zionists in being cannon fodder for building their paradise.
Avi K:
“…British…greatly restricted Jewish immigration in 1936 in a vain attempt to appease the Mufti ym”s…”
No, that would be because of the Zionist terror and war that the Zionists waged against both the Arabs and the British, so the British didn’t want it to get any worse. Had the wicked Zionists not invaded and not agitated, then the British would have welcomed and encouraged Jewish immigration at a time when Jews badly needed (especially because the same wicked Zionists lobbied governments against allowing in Jews to their countries).Eileh elohecha
chiefshmerel:
Yes, the most mild of what the gedolim stated in their criticism of Rabbi Kook was the Gerrer Rebbe after Rabbi Kook supposedly agreed (on which he “clarified” that he meant only the “intent” and only if the others would retract) to retract his writings. The Gerrer Rebbe wrote that Rabbi Kook ruled “al tamei tahor”. That was the mildest of what the gedolim stated about him.“You don’t source…”
You can read Rav Miller on the Holocaust in A Divine Madness. You can buy the sefarim of the Chazon Ish, Rav Elchonon and all the rest. Or, you can ask your LOR for the sources and if he has other sources that claim otherwise and bring those.I want to know Chofetz Chaim’s opinion, please.
…. as per the gimmel shevuos which are, of course, fully in effect according to all.
—joke of the century ….
“according to all” should be rephrased as — “according to Satmar Rav and other chashuva rabbanim … ”
but according to avnei nezer , rav zevin , possibly ohr sameach , and according to shulhan aruch , tur and rambam [acording to avnei nezer] , the pashtut of rav chaim vital — not .
high time to be honest …
.… had the wicked Zionists not invaded and not agitated …
—
again ….. katan is not being honest here …
zionists did not ‘invade’ EY .
they immigrated .
huge difference .
katan should remember – even when he fights against evil [according to his opinion] he should stick to accuracy …
the facts don’t change according to ideology …
facts are facts … and should be quoted accurately .
.
.
.rav shlomo zalman was not ‘in favor of’ the state .
that is plainly inaccurate .
.
‘the aguda’ did not sign the decleration of independence. r yitshak meir levin signed in his personal capacity .he also happened to be the chairman of aguda.
those are the facts.
it is your interpretation that ‘the aguda’ signed .
stick to the facts , please , and then add the interpretation.
.
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