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October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457422yankel berelParticipantOctober 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457423yankel berelParticipant
rav kook is quoted by the imrei emet as saying about himself that he not a tsioni and also not a ‘mizrachist’ ….
printed in osef michtavim.
there might be other sources . I don’t know of them ….
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.October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457424yankel berelParticipant@AAQ
have a look in dugma midarkei avi , in the three volume set of sifrei hafets hayim
where hafets hayim’s son quotes his fathers opinion about the balfour declaration .
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.October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457426yankel berelParticipanthaavara plan was a ‘great success’ ….
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one can wonder whether without the haavara plan , the nazi economy would have rebounded so quickly from the great depression ???
who knows ??
this rebounding, fueled subsequent nazi aggression ….
one of the mysteries of world history ….
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.October 9, 2025 5:21 pm at 5:21 pm #2457425yankel berelParticipantwhile the factors you quote did exist ,
you are [deliberately?] ignoring the clear role zionism played in the decline of religion pre WW2 in eastern europe and in EY ….
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.October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457834Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantYankel, thanks for the idea to look at Balfour declaration for Chofetz Chaim. Here is what I am finding:
Rav Shmuel Greineman, footnotes to Chofetz Chaim divrei Torah that he published (parasha bo)
ארץ זבת חלב ודבש שמות” י״ג:ה׳” “A land of milk and honey”
Chofetz Chaim: The soul certainly can not survive without a body, and all the commandments that are dependant on The Land can not be fulfilled without Eretz Yisrael. Our nation can not last in exile, and it is forbidden for us to remain here, nor to go elsewhere to be involved in business. Here they attempt to catch us and accuse us, nevertheless we live and survive, if but in difficulty. But Eretz Yisrael without Torah is nothing but a clump of earth, a body without a soul. ..
Note:
The Chofetz Chaim never let his mind wander from the mitzvah of settling Eretz Yisrael.I remember, in the winter of 5678 (1918), when the Chofetz Chaim was told about the tremendous joy that spread throughout Jewish homes in reponse to the Balfour declaration. The Chofetz Chaim burst out crying, and said, “What does joy accomplish? Hashem promised us that we would ‘burst forth westward, eastward, northward, and southward.’ This is a guaranteed document that Hashem will pay up in its appointed time.
“Now people have come and only admit to a small part of Hashem’s document, and everyone is getting excited as if the redemption has almost arrived!
“People are ready to be satisfied with a small amount… They don’t expect more… Woe unto us!” And he continued to cry.October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457835Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantR Berl Wein
The son of the Chofetz Chaim ,.. writes in his memoirs that his father donned his Shabbat clothing upon hearing the news and stated that “the matter (of Jewish redemption) has now begun and that we should be careful not to ruin this opportunity.”October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457836Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantI think this is from same notes
One time, they read him an article from a newspaper, in which one of the ‘maskilim’ expressed his hope that in the end Eretz Yisrael would be an independant country like Bulgaria, which was established on the ruins of Turkey. The Chofetz Chaim burst out crying and said, “Does this matter make sense? We are suffering for one thousand eight hundred years, our blood flows like water, we increase our prayers and supplications for a respite from the difficulties of the exile, and here they satisfy themselves with only a small amount? They have completely forgotten about the roles our prophets set out for us, and the promises of our holy Torah.”
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One time we heard how the Chofetz Chaim expressed his anguish about the leftists in Eretz Yisrael, “Could it be that something good will come out of the left, that the Divine Presence will rest on their actions?”
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It is a grave mistake that these people make, to think that the Torah and mitzvos are secondary matters and are unconnected to the building of the land. Remember the words of the Torah (Vayikra 18:21), “That the land not vomit you out when you contaminate it, as it vomited out the nations before you.” Eretz Yisrael is the palace of the king, one who sins there sins a great sin, and the danger [that results from sin] is much greater there!The son of the Chofetz Chaim, Harav R’ Leib zt’l, would tell over that when the British announced the Balfour declaration in regards to Eretz Yisrael, the Chofetz Chaim saw in this a type of אתערותא דלעילא (awakening from above) in regards to the redemption, and he spoke then of the Ohr Hachaim on the verse “וקם שבט בישראל” – “and a rod shall rise in Israel.” [There the Ohr Hachaim speaks about the two possibilities in regards to the redemption. It can come miraculously, if the Jewish people merit it, or it can come in a natural way, if they do not. This part of the passuk refers to the redemption coming in a natural way in the merit of the tzaddikim of the Jewish people, who are referred to as Yisrael.] He said, however, that he was worried that the ‘frei’ would destroy it [as a result of their bad deeds], heaven forbid. He would also say that were many times in the past that had been opportunities lost for the redemption as a result of the destructive deeds of the generation.
October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457837Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantA little different interpretation of seemingly same lines in another secondary source:
His son, Reb Leib, used to tell over that when the English announced the Balfour Declaration regarding the Jewish return to the Land of Israel, the Chofetz Chaim saw in this a sign from above that Heaven was preparing the Geula. However, he said that he was afraid that the secularists might ruin it, chas v’shalom. Many times in the past the time was ripe, but the people in the generation ruined it.Once the Chofetz Chaim was heard expressing his aggravation regarding the leftist factions in Eretz Yisroel. “Is it possible that anything good can come from these people? How can the Shechina come down and rest on something they established?” When he was shown a newspaper where one of their journalists wrote that it’s possible to be a good Jew without the Torah, the Chofetz Chaim wrote a long rebuttal to be published all over. “The existence of Yisroel depends upon the Torah, not on a country or a language! If we don’t keep the Torah the medina and the language won’t save us!” (Chofetz Chaim on the Torah, Parshas Bo)
October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457838Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipanthere are some interestingquotes from a site that defends shevuos and starts with “Zionism was the most successful violation of the oaths in our history, but it wasn’t the first. I”
The Chofetz Chaim says that there is one kind of war that is permitted even during exile: a war against a decree of shmad, a decree made by a government that forces Jews to give up their Torah observance. The classic case of a war against a decree of shmad was the Maccabean revolt, he says. This war took place during the Temple era; nevertheless the Chofetz Chaim said that such a war would be permitted even today, when the oaths are in force, against an empire that outlaws the Torah, such as Communist Russia. (Recorded by Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman in his article “Omer Ani Maasai Lamelech” section 9.)
When the British government issued the well-known Balfour Declaration regarding Eretz Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim saw it as an arousal from above regarding the redemption… But he said, I am afraid that the irreligious will ruin it, G-d forbid. He would said that many times there have already been times of favor, but those generations ruined it.” (Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah p. 101) In any case the Chofetz Chaim never said that it was permitted to found a Jewish state. Similar, the Ohr Somayach was quoted as having written a letter in support of immigration under the Mandate, stating that immigration did not violate the oaths. He never said that conquest of the land would not violate them.
October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457839Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantthird version of the same story from the anti-zionist POV. Seems like everyone agrees on the words Chofetz Chaim said, but interprets them somewhat differently.
footnotes of Chofetz Chaim Al Hatorah, Parshas Bo:
In the winter of 5678 (1917-1918) when they told the Chofetz Chaim about the simcha that had spread in Jewish homes because of the Balfour Declaration, the Chofetz Chaim burst out crying and said, “What is the point of this simcha? Hakadosh Baruch Hu promised us, ‘And you shall spread out west and east and north and south’ – here is a sure promisory note, which Hakadosh Baruch Hu will pay up when the time comes. Now some people come and admit to a small part of Hakadosh Baruch Hu’s promisory note, and everyone is happy about this declaration, and they see it as a sort of redemption. They are satisfied with a little… they don’t wait for more… Oy, what has become of us…” and he continued crying.
The Chofetz Chaim’s son, Reb Leib, used to relate: “When the British government issued the well-known Balfour Declaration regarding Eretz Yisroel, the Chofetz Chaim saw it as an arousal from above regarding the redemption. At that time he quoted the comment of the Ohr Hachaim Hakadosh on the verse, ‘a tribe will arise from Israel’ (Bamidbar 24:17). But he said, I am afraid that the irreligious will ruin it, G-d forbid. He would said that many times there have already been times of favor, but those generations ruined it.”
October 11, 2025 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2457851Avi KParticipantYankel Berel,
1. They are not in effect. (if they ever were – as I pointed out, Reish Lakish said the opposite) according to Rav Chaim Vital, Rav Meir Simcha, and Rav Soloveichik.
22. Secular Zionism did not play any role in secularization. It was a result.
3. Rav Shlomo Zalman said that when he wanted to go to kivrei tzaddikim, he went to the military cemetery on Mt. Herzl.
October 12, 2025 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2458124Avi KParticipantAlways,
1. The religious ruined it by not heeding Rav Kook’s call to make aliya en masse.
2. Rav Meir Simcha said that the San Remo Convention cancelled the oaths. He also personally contributed to the JNF.
3. Ramban says (Sefer haMitzvot, Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot” 4) thatt here is a mitzva to conquer the Land in every generation.October 12, 2025 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #2458320smerelParticipant>>>third version of the same story from the anti-zionist POV. Seems like everyone agrees on the words Chofetz Chaim said, but interprets them somewhat differently.
All three versions of the story are quoting the same person. Yet anyone who looks inside to see what he actually wrote can see they are all inaccurate. See the actual Kitzur Toldos Chayav written by R’ Leib Poupko himself. He did say similar things but not nearly as dramatic or as strongly as being claimed by the anti-Zionists. No he did not burst out crying about hearing people celebrating the Balfour Declaration. In fact he celebrated it himself! He did express his worry that the secularists would ruin things
The Chofetz Chaim on the Torah, Parshas Bo is probably the most accurate depiction of what the CC said and felt about the issue. But according to his son (The R’ Leib quoted here) the CC was actually uncertain about publishing his one and only anti Zionist letter which opposed the claim Zionists then made (they no longer do) that by living in EY and speaking you can be a good Jew without keeping Torah. He wrote it and was still weighing the possible unintended consequences publishing such a letter could have, when the person in charge of his correspondence sent it to be published without his explicit instructions that they do so.
October 13, 2025 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2458722Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantAvi> The religious ruined it by not heeding Rav Kook’s call
Agree, but you are mindlessly repeating the lashon hara terms – as if followers of R Kook were not “religious”. As somejew showed, it is asur to speak such loshon hora.
October 13, 2025 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2458727Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantsmerel, R Greineman writes as if he saw this first hand, not from R Poupko and it seems from the text that he was writing with CC approval. I understand his crying is not because of Balfour, or a possible misuse of Balfour, but that people are satisfied with such a small step towards the geulah.
If I dare to add, CC seems not to be familiar with the chinese saying – a journey of a thousand li begins with a single step.
October 13, 2025 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2458737Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant> CC was actually uncertain about publishing his one and only anti Zionist letter which opposed the claim Zionists then made (they no longer do) that by living in EY and speaking you can be a good Jew without keeping Torah.
smerel, thanks for answering my question – that CC was very limited in his public arguments against Z. I had this impression from reading his correspondence and finding arguments against every other group, but it is hard to prove a negative. The question then on REW – how could he have such a drastically different position? Was there any discussion between REW and CC? Did REW ask? Did CC respond to what REW was saying and writing?
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