How do you address people of the opposite sex?

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  • #1138113

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Make the correction for him. You know what he wanted to say.

    #1138114

    Sam2
    Participant

    Wait, is Joseph a mod? That can’t be. No way.

    #1138115

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    YW Moderator-29 – If one really wants to show the world they are Frum, calling Noshim by their married name is insufficient. To get your children to the top of the Shidduchim list, you need to start ripping off clothing (Al Pi the Gemorah Brachos 20a), and not calling Noshim by their last name either (using a last name also can show familiarity!!). Using the English term starting with a “W” and ending with “men” or “man” also shows a lack of Frumkeit, and will push your Isha child back on the Shidduch list.

    Regarding your second point, I do not see the Rabbi who wrote that book having any qualifications or expertise regarding the subject matter. Therefore, it is no different than stam a guy who has Smicha (or not) writing a book.

    #1138116

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    For most people an office environment is the only place they will meet people of various types and you really have to be careful how you tread.

    I have a friend who worked with an “Alternative Lifestyle” person and non-verbally showed their disdain , the person complained and they were almost fired but had to take a sensitivity training class

    I heard another story of someone who mocked his co-workers buddah in his own cubicle and also almost got in trouble as not being respectful of others. You are not allowed to preach about Buddah in the office, but you are not allowed to be mocked for it either. Same as a person supposedly born on December 25. A person can have a cross in their cubicle, but they cannot offer to “save” you.

    Dealing with members of the opposite gender is a very fine line. While some might consider you name shaking their hand or avoidance of small talk as perfectly OK, others might take it very differently especially if they might be your superior or underling and might think you are not treating them fairly especially if you shake another males hand or engage in small talk with the men and not the women.

    #1138117

    Lovelyme
    Member

    Everyone, your wasting your time, ask your rabbi!

    #1138118

    TheGoq
    Participant

    When I worked in a frum office i called the women Mrs. Soandso and they called me by my first name.

    #1138119

    MDG
    Participant

    Goq,

    I’m glad to hear that you maintained the high road and showed class.

    #1138120

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I call everyone Mr.

    #1138121

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I address everyone as Reb Yid.

    #1138122

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Even if they’re not Jewish?

    #1138123

    pcoz
    Member

    On an envelope.

    #1138124

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Then it would be reb goy

    #1138125

    Avi K
    Participant

    I am tempted to write “name, street address, city, state or country”. Not to mention (@Gog) that I personally would not like to called a so-and-so.

    Seriously, these are matters are dependent on minhag. In some countries one only addresses personal friends by first name or singular “you”. In Russia one uses the first name plus the patronymic (e.g. Vladimir Vladimirovich). In some countries (Israel, for example) not using the first name is a considered stuffy. I definitely would not go by popular halacha books as first of all they tend to be as machmir as possible and then some so that they will not be attacked and secondly they reflect the author’s particular community even though they purport to pasken for all Jews.

    #1138126

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The shulchan aruch is a “popular Halacha book”. Just saying.

    #1138127

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The shulchan aruch is a “popular Halacha book”. Just saying.

    Yes, but the author was an expert on the subject matter :), and followed basic rules (which were broken every now and then) so that everyone could understand where the Halacha was sourced and that he did not make it up using a Boich Svarah. Makes the “book” into a “Sefer”.

    These “popular Halacha books” would be Seforim if they actually sourced their Halacha. Then again, if they did, they couldn’t be Machmir 100% of the time (See the differences between R. Falk’s Teshuvos, where he Paskens, and his “book”, where he is Machmir (as per the minhagim of his community), because he doesn’t have to defend a Psak. He can simply say “this is what should be done”. And everyone (even outside his community) does it, or their Isha children get bumped down on the Shidduch list and all their children are rejected from schools as “not following rules” or “not our type” or “not following Halacha”).

    </rant>

    #1138128

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    For examples of a “popular Halacha book” that is a “Sefer” that shows all sources, see Rabbi Ribiat’s 39 Melachos or Rabbi Forst’s Artscroll Seforim.

    #1138129

    Mrs. D
    Participant

    I believe in the good-old days of talmudic yore, men were called “Mar,” women “Marah,” or “Bayit.” Many cultures show respect to women without familiarity such as calling woman “Aunty” or some variation of that. As for me, from now on, I would like all responders of the opposite gender to refer to me as “MRS-MRS.” D., thank you very much. That should do it.

    #1138130

    cherrybim
    Participant

    To all of you male posters who are addressing Joseph by name; a few words of caution: it’s very possible that Joseph is a female.

    #1138131

    Avi K
    Participant

    MRS-MRS. (the last two letters are properly in lower case) D (are you the wife of Mrs. D?),

    Only very important men, such as the Exilarch (Reish Galuta) were called “Mar’ (according to the Sepharadim “Mor”) or “Abba”. Sometimes women were called “Ima” (“Marat”, not “Mara” is relatively recent) but it was rare. For example, Rav Nachman’s wife, who was also the daughter of the Reish Galuta and a very aristocratic and opinionated (see Berachot 51b – and note how Ulla responded to her) woman was called by her name, Yalta.”Beito” or in Aramaic “Beitei” (not “Bayit”) was used in the third person (e.g. “beito shel Rav Ploni).

    When people call me “Mar” I respond that I am not mar, I am matok. When they call me “Rav” I respond “Ani lo rav im af echad”. One person sometimes calls me “Chacham Avraham” – generally when he wants something.

    You’re welcome very much.

    #1138132

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Yes, but the author was an expert on the subject matter”

    why assume differently here?

    #1138133

    Health
    Participant

    My Rov calls his wife – either “excuse me” or “ahem”.

    #1138134

    Joseph
    Participant
    #1138135

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    why assume differently here?

    From the content of his works it is obvious he doesn’t and hasn’t been involved in corporate America (AKA “the outside world”). He isn’t a Gadol whose statements should be valued as “Da’as Torah”.

    Truthfully, other than this book, I have no idea who the “rabbi” is and what he does for a living. If he has qualifications and expertise in interpersonal relationships in a workplace (a doctorate in business administration, perhaps?) , I’m willing to change my views.

    #1138136

    Mrs. D
    Participant

    Avi K:

    As for your detailed discourse on the topic of appellations of old, yes, you got it right, and admirably. I was being general. As for the nudge about caps and lower case – hey – don’t start with somebody who edits for a living, ok? I was capitalizing as one does, for emphasis. As for whether i am indeed the husband or the wife of the Mrs. D family, may I just say – at the risk of causing coffee to be spurted out from a few noses – that one who knows doesn’t tell and one who tells doesn’t know. I actually enjoyed your rejoinders to those who attempt to title you. Maybe you should stick to Sir Avi.

    #1138137

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mrs. Mrs. D: That should be Mr. K to you.

    #1138138

    Mrs. D
    Participant

    Joseph – i was about to acknowledge your correction. But after a bit I now wonder if a Mrs. Mrs. D addressing someone as a Mr. K might just be a little too familiar??? Hmmm…

    #1138139

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Since you dont know who he is or what his qualifications for writing such a book are, you trash it?

    #1138140

    apushatayid
    Participant

    As a bachur I ate by a family on shabbos and assumed the lady of the house was named Herna. Everytime her husband wanted something from her it was “Herna, the fish please”, “Herna, mind if we sing zemiros now”?

    #1138141

    golfer
    Participant

    Hi Oomis. I know someone else already asked you this but you didn’t reply and I’m curious–

    Does your rebbetzin, who gently reminds people to call her by her first name, also ask the men in your kehilla to address her by her first name?

    Or were you referring just to the ladies?

    #1138142

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Since you dont know who he is or what his qualifications for writing such a book are, you trash it?

    Absolutely. I “trash” (more like disregard) it based on its content, not based on the author. I then derive conclusions about the author based on the content of his books.

    #1138143

    Health
    Participant

    APY -“Everytime her husband wanted something from her it was “Herna, the fish please”, “Herna, mind if we sing zemiros now”.”

    I get the joke, but if you want to write Yiddish with English words, use German. In other words, “Herr Noh”!

    #1138144

    Avi K
    Participant

    Mrs D (I hope that this is not being too familiar),

    1. Is there a reason why you sometimes write “I” and sometimes “i”? Do you have ups and downs regarding humility?

    2. As I am retired I cannot say that I am not a Sir, I work for a living. In fact, I once told someone who asked for my title that he should call me “Your Excellency”.

    Health & Apushatayid, I did not get that one. I did hear about a Chassidic melamed who taught the pasuk that starts “??-??? ??? ???”. One boy asked what is an isha. The melamed said “What your father has”. The boy replied “Oh. A hernia”.

    #1138146

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Herr Noh”

    That would be Frau Noh. He didnt use titles.

    #1138147

    Avi K
    Participant

    Apushatayid, I still don’t get it.

    #1138148

    Health
    Participant

    APY -“That would be Frau Noh. He didnt use titles.”

    No, it wouldn’t! Do you know what he meant by “Herr Noh”?

    #1138149

    The Queen
    Participant

    ??? ???

    as in listen up (may I have your attention)

    #1138150

    Health
    Participant

    Queen – that was a question to Apushatayid, not to everyone!

    Btw, the exact translation is “Hear now”.

    #1138151

    The Queen
    Participant

    ??? is not now. Now in yiddish is ???? It means only. ‘listen only’ It doesn’t translate smoothly.

    #1138152

    Health
    Participant

    Queen -“??? is not now. Now in yiddish is ???? It means only. ‘listen only’ It doesn’t translate smoothly.”

    Excuse me, “listen only”, isn’t the exact translation! It would be “Hear only”. That’s why I posted – “Hear now”!

    #1138153

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Yes. In english we would say listen up. I also know what Herr means in German.

    #1138154

    The Queen
    Participant

    “Btw, the exact translation is “Hear now”.

    Not to nit pick but ??? means both hear and listen in yiddish.

    #1138155

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Yes. In english we would say listen up. I also know what Herr means in German.

    So, in other words, they call their wives a more civilized version of “Hey!?”

    The Wolf

    #1138156

    Joseph
    Participant

    The seforim hakedoshim say not to call your wife by her first name when in public. While this isn’t a universally followed custom, it is cited as a middos tznius. This is where the widely utilized (in some communities) “??? ???” directly comes from.

    Which brings us back to the initial issue in this OP. If there’s an issue calling your wife (in public) by her first name, how much more so your neighbour’s wife or colleague or other woman!

    #1138157

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, the reason to call your wife by something other than the first name is precisely because she is your wife.

    #1138158

    Joseph
    Participant

    Certainly not in public, if you’re referring to calling her by an endearing term.

    #1138159

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I’m not.

    #1138160

    mdd
    Member

    joseph, stop dreing the kup. You can’t bring a proof from am extreme chumra.

    #1138161

    Joseph
    Participant

    Is al tarbeh sicha im haishah an extreme chumra? b’ishto omru, kal v’chomer b’eishas chaveiro.

    #1138162

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, please cite your sources. What about “Hey you”?

    #1138163

    B1g B0y
    Participant

    Joseph just quoted the shulchan aruch

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