How do you think?

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  • #1657098

    square root of 2
    Participant

    The choices being neshama, nefesh, ruach, seichel, guf, a hybrid of the above, or other, with what does a person make his decisions?
    I think I have conflicting sources on this so I’d appreciate some clarity on the subject.

    #1657328

    laskern
    Participant

    Thinking is through the moach which contains the neshama and the sechel as we say on Tefilin.

    #1657385

    CS
    Participant

    With your nefesh hasichlis (which may or may not be part of your nefesh habehamis.)

    I can explain the process if you’d like

    #1658660

    square root of 2
    Participant

    @laskern, it “contains” the neshama and sechel–does that mean that the neshama and sechel are contributing factors? The only factors? Or mere residents in the moach?
    @chabadshlucha, yes please explain.

    #1658661

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Think with your g-d given brains and you will never go wrong.
    Problem with people today especially in the yeshivish/chasidish world , are taught to be like robots and not think for themselves.

    #1658813

    laskern
    Participant

    You have four categories דומם, צומח, חי, מדבר the inanimate, plantations, living and speaking. In Parshas Breishis סוף מעשה במחשבה תחלה what was created later, was the original purpose of creation. The purpose of creation was the human being able to think and express himself by his mouth. We make a birchas HaTorah for writing as it is another means of expressing ourselves. Everything else was created before him like a prepared table. The human being only has a neshama helping him to think. There are 25 levels of neshama נפש, רוח, נשמה, חיה, יחידה so he can have נפש שבנפש, רוח שבנפש…. נפש שברוח and so on. As we become greater, the yetzer horah becomes greater. It cannot be stronger than the neshama can take. When we exhaust its strength, a higher level of neshama is provided. See the Sefer Habris and the Sefer Hachinuch Mitzva 350.

    #1658836

    laskern
    Participant

    sqrt[2], they are both contributing factors. I don’t knpw if they are the only factors.

    #1658917

    laskern
    Participant

    We have חכמה, בינה דעת. The first is wisdom, recognizing there is a problem by looking at the highest level of purpose. For example from Aesop fables, a bird with a big beak could not drink from a pitcher, so he threw in some pebbles to make the water rise. It is important not to concentrate too much at the pitcher as there might be water elsewhere. The highest level of purpose is to attain water. The second is understanding, comparing one item to the other and see if they are similar or not. The Chasam Sofer in Chulin 7 says that this is the purpose of a rebbi,teacher to be able to differentiate. The third is the most important one. It is the new knowledge we acquire.

    #1658968

    MDG
    Participant

    Considering that the OP is the square root of 2, I would have to say that s/he is not rational.

    (Math joke)

    #1660098

    square root of 2
    Participant

    @laskern if the moach is combined of different factors which do the thinking, the neshama being only one component, then why is the sachar veonesh applied only to the neshama and not all parts of the moach?

    #1660170

    laskern
    Participant

    The gemora in Perek Chelek asks this question. It compares this to two people, a blind one and a lame one, seeing a fruit tree. Each by itself cannot get the fruits but they get it together. The blind one picks up the lame one on his shoulders and they enjoy the fruit together. Similarly, the body and soul , each alone cannot sin, but together they do. Hashem puts the soul in the body and get punished together. The sechel is not an entity on its own but its gets rewarded and punished togerher with the neshama.

    • This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    • This reply was modified 7 months, 2 weeks ago by  laskern.
    #1660291

    CS
    Participant

    Sorry for the delay. My new hobby has not left me much time for the CR:)

    Anyhow, we have three different types of thought processes and viewpoints going through our mind on a constant basis. They are the nefesh hoelokis AKA neshama viewpoint, nefesh habehamis viewpoint, and the guf instincts.

    NFHE sechel wants everything for Hashem. Ie. Ahava should be devoted to loving Hashem, fellow Jews etc.

    Gevura should be devoted to hating whatever opposes Hashem, discipline to serving Him better.

    In contrast, NFHB sechel wants everything to revolve around itself. Ahava= self love, Gevura = hating criticism / disliking those who do more than you because they make you feel guilty etc.

    Guf instincts send up thoughts like I’m hungry, thirsty, tired etc.

    The sechel processor ie you, is the nefesh hasichlis which is neutral sechel. It takes in what you feed it, assesses the logic within, and based on that creates your emotions (which is what you are (on an external level at least.))

    Now you change yourself based on what you put in. For example, if you learn chovos halevavos and think about that for awhile, what makes sense to you, and thereby what you feel and then do, will be very different than if you immerse yourself in secular studies and college environment. Usually.

    The former will lead to you prioritizing Minyan, Yiddishe chinuch, honesty etc.

    The latter will lead you to prioritizing “making it” in the world, with whatever compromises it entails.

    And both are based on logic. Just depends which logic you feed to the nefesh hasichlis.

    #1660343

    TheFakeMaven
    Participant

    A person has three souls, נפש הבהמות, נפש אלקות, ונפש השכלית. You are the נפש השכלית, the other two start the thought processes, נפש אלקות for עבודת ה’ and the נפש הבהמות for tavah etc. The נפש השכלית has three modes of actualizing it’s thoughts, Thinking, speaking, and acting, these are called the Levushai HaNefesh.

    #1660440

    laskern
    Participant

    TheFakeMavin, You are saying that the highest level is נפש השכלית which decides between נפש האלקית and נפש הבהמית. Maybe that is where Freud got the id/individual desire, ego/morality, super ego/Religion/Torah.

    #1660485

    TheFakeMaven
    Participant

    laskern: No, that was not my intention. The person, that you are is the Nefesh Hasichlias, who has two other ‘souls’ the Nefesh Elokis, and the Nefesh Habahamis. In the NH”E there are many levels, but the Nefesh Hasichlias is not on a higher level per se.

    As for Fraud, the concept of tri part soul is a concept clearly expressed in the Greek writings. But I don’t see the Nefesh Hasichlias there at all….

    #1660914

    square root of 2
    Participant

    @laskern, the gemara is referring to the guf and the neshama. Olam Haba is referred to as the olam haneshamos, according to the Ramba there will be no guf then. Clearly the guf’s responsibility for decisions is minimal. Will there be seichel in olam haba?
    @chabadshlucha, “And both are based on logic. Just depends which logic you feed to the nefesh hasichlis.” Well, aren’t you being fed by all 3? What makes the final decision?

    #1661112

    laskern
    Participant

    TheFakeMaven, you are asking a very good question The Deroshas Horan, 7 explains on the gemorah of the oven like a snake in Baba Metziah where they did not want to accept Rebbi Eliezer’s view because Torah is not in the heavens, that once it was given down on earth, we must understand it with human understanding. It looks like what we learned over here can be transferred to to the next world. Rabbah was taken away before his time to mediate the argument on a baheres so we must have some human faculties in the next world.

    #1661290

    CS
    Participant

    Square root: I mean outside influences/ logic that you
    feed your mind. Like I said, if you learn chovos halevavos on a constant basis, your NFHE logic will be strengthened. If you go to college your NFHB logic will be strengthened etc.

    Btw even though all three can and do conflict, because they have three different agendas, the point is to create harmony between all three. That is when we are at our best. I can elaborate if you’d like.

    #1661380

    Fairpricerx
    Participant

    Very interesting question. I read all the comments and was very inspired. There are going to the smartest people!

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