January 1, 2013 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #607651brotherofursParticipant
i know someone thats having a difficult time knowing what Hashem wants from her. She has such a good voice but sometimes gets the feeling that when she’s in choirs (for girls only of course) she’s showing off and not using her talent the way Hashem wants her to. What’s a good way to use her voice??January 1, 2013 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #917075147Participant
Sing Zemiros & Mah Nishtano to her Husband.January 1, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #917076hershiMember
Only if their are no guests in the home.January 1, 2013 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #917077Git MeshigeParticipant
Sing nursery rhymes to her childrenJanuary 1, 2013 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #917078squeakParticipant
People with good voices are their own biggest fans anyway. She can impress herself with her singing while the challah dough is rising. And while she does the laundry. And when she says tehillim.
Seriously, are you asking for sympathy because you cant perform? How utterly vain.January 1, 2013 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #917079DasMember
Sing to people (ladies only obviously) if it will cheer them up. Sing for organizations to help raise money.January 1, 2013 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #917080mms601Participant
Genetically pass it on to their male offspring?January 1, 2013 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #917081rebdonielMember
The Sridei Esh was of the shita that a woman singing zmiros was not kol isha b’erva.
This makes sense considering that Talmudically, kol isha is an issur against licentiousness, not the voice of a woman, bichlal.
A woman with a good voice, I suppose, could sing zemiros and perform for audiences of women and girls, and entertain her husband.January 1, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #917083Torah613TorahParticipant
Contact Malky Giniger.January 1, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #917084yytzParticipant
Hashem gives us our talents so that we can help other people with them, or otherwise use them in our Avodas Hashem. Loving Hashem is one of the six constant mitzvos. Perhaps while you are signing, instead of thinking about how good your voice sounds or whatever (showing off, as you mentioned), try to use your voice to arouse your heart and mind to feel love and awe for Him. Or perhaps you could be a voice teacher, helping others connect to Hashem and gain self-esteem through improving their singing?January 1, 2013 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #917085popa_bar_abbaParticipant
To yell at her husband.January 1, 2013 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #917086WIYMember
He will think she is just rehearsing some opera.January 1, 2013 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #917087brotherofursParticipant
thanks everybody, yytz i like ur advice i’m gonna tell her that!January 1, 2013 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #917088Veltz MeshugenerMember
She should use her voice to not sing and thereby be mekadesh shaim shamayim. Boy am I clever.
(Goes back to thinking of important ways for other people to work on their middos)January 2, 2013 3:31 am at 3:31 am #917089mommamia22Participant
Your post sounds mean.
The choices are limited, but maybe she can use her talents to sing to a population that she feels she can inspire??
Newer Baalos teshuva in sems would love to learn nigunim, zmiros, davening, etc.
Children can be inspired by tapes about things they learn (it could be even math, English, davening, halacha,etc).
Some people learn auditorily. Songs can help people remember things. This could be an opportunity to use her gift to teach, if she’s so inclined.
I made up songs for my family for different tefillos, like Krias shma al hamittah, which helped them remember it and enjoy saying it, and for everyday tasks, including dressing, baths, etc. They love it, and I do too.January 2, 2013 6:36 am at 6:36 am #917090locaMember
There is SO much a girl can use her voice for! A beautiful voice can inspire so much deeper then with words. It can help arouse feelings in Tefilla. It can add so much beauty and pleasantness and peacefulness to a home. Children love hearing songs and singing throughout the day makes the daily grind go smoother and help them to cooperate. Singing has a calming effect on people who are nervous. Singing a song especially for a person can inspire and lift up someone where words cant. Singing can help people remember stories, and touch their heart. Family or friends sitting and singing together brings feeling of closeness. Who cares about Zmiros and the fact that it cant be used publicly or in front of men? I don’t see that as much of a limit at all! Woman have a different role. We are nurturers, teachers, and mothers and Hashem sends us gifts to use in order to better serve Him. There is SO much we can do with it, we just have to genuinely want to use it with love . And also, I don’t feel there is anything wrong with a girl feeling good about the beauty of her voice in a choir. But it is definitely very special to want to use it for higher purposes.January 2, 2013 11:30 am at 11:30 am #917091ToiParticipant
no no, you’re right, she should perform for stadiums full of men to make Hashem happy.January 2, 2013 11:58 am at 11:58 am #917092PosterMember
Squeak is so right! Pple that have good voices, are more proud of their voices than the public needing their services. I would say your friends problem is more of a low self esteem issue. Let her engage in other hobbies where she can produce something tangible, such as knitting, painting, making a nice puzzle. I may be wrong. just voicing my opinionJanuary 2, 2013 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #917093WIYMember
Usually people who have a certain gift are also born with an inherent strong need and desire to share that gift with others. Usually people who have a great voice love to sing and its a way to express their true self. Imagine if Avraham Fried never went into the singing business. I think he would be very depressed and feel unfulfilled. I don’t think all or even most singers sing to show off. I’m sure that gaiva gets the better of them at times, I think anyone standing on stage in front of 1000s of people and getting applause will feel some gaiva. But lets not judge them. At the end of the day most heimish singers offer us beautiful music and songs that enhances our Shabbosim, yomim tovim, simchos, and allows us to have a kosher outlet and gives us something kosher for the kids to listen to. We should be makir tov to them.January 2, 2013 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #917094YusselParticipant
I don’t know what to tell the OP, but I wish we could find what to do with the ba’alei tefillah who think they are inspiring people but really are not.
As for the OP, well, it seems that halakhic Judaism, as lived in the “frum” communities, has no real place for people with artistic gifts. I KNOW people will say that there are plenty of “frum artists” etc, but the we all know the truth. Yiddishkeit (as lived today in “frum” communities) places no value on artistic creation, or any other creation outside Talmudic Scholarship.January 2, 2013 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #917095hershiMember
WIY: The vast majority of people who have a good singing voice, including men, never perform publicly. And they do not feel unfulfilled at all.January 2, 2013 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #917096
How did 90% of the posters completely miss the point of the OP’s question? Admittedly, the title is a bit misleading, but the OP’s actual question has nothing to do with the issur of kol isha; it has to do with an issue facing vocally talented men and women alike, the issue of sincerity in music, which is no small matter for those concerned with connecting to G-d (for themselves and others) through music. Music is extremely powerful, and the feelings a performer has when performing are often felt by the listeners and can make a huge impact on them, as well.
There is a certain awesome connection one can attain with G-d through music which this girl has likely experienced in the past. Music can be a form of tefillah, and some people connect to G-d through music as some do through limud Torah and as others do through gemilas chesed.
It is natural that while performing for others it is much harder to attain this connection, as it is almost impossible not to think about how others hear your music, and you are also much more focused on playing/singing everything correctly than you would be at say, a kumzitz.
That being said, if the music itself is music that is spiritual and meaningful, and has a good message, imho if you are AWARE of that and would like the positive message to come across and to inspire people, then it WILL come across (regardless of your exact thoughts DURING the performance). Thoughts of ga’avah are natural, but your awareness of and concern about them in and of themselves in a way prove that showing off is NOT your intent. It is highly important to keep that awareness, but as long as the thing you WANT to come across is that feeling of inspiration and spirituality, imho that is what will come across.January 2, 2013 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #917097MorahRachMember
Become a teacher! Children love to sing/be sung to. I sing to my child all day, if only I had a good voice!January 2, 2013 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #917098akupermaParticipant
What is considered “modest” varies by culture. In some cultures we frequently encounter, a woman who leaves her face uncovered is considered to be serious undressed. In mainstream secular American culture, certain parts of the body are required to be covered, even though in other cultures (and even in American culture in certain circumstances, such as at a beach) they are uncovered. There are often amusing (or tragic, or at least pathetic) stories of American tourists visiting other countries who believe they are acting normally and are mistaken for prostitutes based on that countries’ culture. What is considered acceptable varies considerably between cultures – what is hard for a BT to accept at first is that frum culture is NOT part of western culture – we are cultural aliens here.
In our culture (meaning traditional Jewish culture), the hair of a married woman, and the singing of woman, are considered to be immodest. In American culture, even erotic singing is allowed (though women are expected to wear a ring to warn others that she is not available). If you have trouble explaining this to someone, ask the person who has trouble how they would explain why American women are expected to wear shirts in public if they were talking to someone from a culture where women can be considered to be modestly dressed without wearing a shirt. There are such cultures, and they think that Americans are weird for being so strict about wearing shirts in public.January 2, 2013 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #917099
“How does Hashem want girls with good voices to use them?”
How does Hashem want girls with good dance moves to use them?January 2, 2013 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #917100mommamia22Participant
Refaeli was a VERY talented painter. He loved to paint and decided to use his talent to make money by sharing it with those who had an appreciation of (his) art.
Was he gaavadik because he knew he was good at it and decided he wanted to do that for a living?!?
How is that any different?
Men can Daven for the amud. They can share the beauty of their voices publicly. Why are they any less gaavadik?!?
There is nothing wrong with her recognizing what she is good at. It doesn’t mean her self esteem is built on that or that she thinks she’s any better than anyone else.
Is a teacher gaavadik because he’s good at teaching children? Would you insist that a teacher chose that profession because he liked hearing the sound of his own voice??
I don’t think most people would choose a profession with a low income just to hear the sound of their own voices.January 2, 2013 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #917101
uneeq – While there may be many similarities between the two, there are important differences, especially regarding what the OP was ACTUALLY ASKING. If you people really want to go on some religious tirade, why don’t you start another thread that actually has something to with the thing you’re ranting about?
In the right environment, a man or woman (performing for women, as the OP clearly stated) can have a great effect on people through music. See my previous post.January 2, 2013 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #917102TheBearIsBackMember
She should become the next Malky Giniger or Chanale Fellig. Women do not have nearly the choice we do (and that is a major understatement) when it comes to music. Hatzlocho.January 2, 2013 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #917103
Frummy- “uneeq – While there may be many similarities between the two, there are important differences, especially regarding what the OP was ACTUALLY ASKING. If you people really want to go on some religious tirade, why don’t you start another thread that actually has something to with the thing you’re ranting about?”
I wasn’t ranting nor on some “religious tirade”. It’s wonderful how you saw all that in my brief words.
To answer your main issue: It’s upsetting when an user titles a thread that is completely inaccurate and totally irrelevant to the question posed in the OP. I was answering the ridiculous question posed in the title. The thread should have been titled something like “Opportunities to sing in a non-gaavadik way” or even “For what purpose did Hashem give people good voices?”.January 2, 2013 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #917104JustHavingFunParticipant
I only sing in the shower. And when nobody else is home. And when nobody at home is in the shower.
Alternatively, I only sing rap because nobody can call that st*ff music and no voice, however beautiful, can make it sound … like music.January 2, 2013 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #917105jakywebMember
The men in my family have awful voices, can’t carry a tune or keep up with the beat. I don’t have a beautifutl voice, but I have a strong voice that enjoys Shabbos Zmiros. If I don’t sing, the Shabbos Zmiros will be a shanda. There are Rabbonim that believe Zmiros are tefillos and not part of kol isha issues. If there is a man at my Shabbos table that is offended he is free to leave. So far this has not happened in the fifty years I have been singing on Shabbos.January 2, 2013 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #917106January 2, 2013 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #917107
frummy: “…the question had nothing to with the gender of the person in question”
Exactly. That’s why I wish the titles of threads were more accurate of the actual discussion. The title makes it sound gender specific. Every time theres a thread like this, I hover over the link trying to remember what was actually being discussed; if it was interesting or not.
Thanks for retracting any harshness that may have been unintended.
TLDR; No personal offense aimed at the OP, but misleading titles are really annoying.January 2, 2013 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #917108benignumanParticipant
The Sridei Eish’s shita that you are referring too wasn’t written as a l’chatchila. It was a limud zchus on the minhag in Germany and a kulah for a kiruv organization (like NCSY) in France.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.