November 25, 2020 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #1922939
A common response to issues with Trumps character and/or his well established history of different sins and business practices that the Torah calls toeva (arayos and even shlaima) is “I don’t care, he gets the job done”, “he’s been great to the Jews” etc. Is there a point where he would do or say something that would have you say “whoa, he just crossed a line” or, “this already is too much.
1) If he were a mishkav zochornik married to the “first man” in the white house.
2) If he were caught specifically saying that he didn’t care that Covid was killing people.
3) If he were caught having extramarital affairs while in the white house
4) If he were trying to fight the election even though he knew that there was trruly not enough fraud to overturn it.
5) If he shot someone on 5th Ave (he said that you would still vote for him if he did that).
Would any or all of those do it? What would?November 25, 2020 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1923025commonsaychelParticipant
Get a life, he lostNovember 25, 2020 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1923031midwesternerParticipant
And for those who say character above all, what about the democratic president 22 years ago who actually did violate #3?November 25, 2020 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1923064johnkletsParticipant
Slimshim, first learn the halachos of what is osur for a ben noach in term of gilu arayes. Second you will not find any politician with Even shlaima. Third this whole question is an obssesion from a Trump hater that cannot stand the fact that he was president of the U.S. for 4 years, even if he now lost the election. I do not know if this is pure Trump hatred or its also self hatred. Zei gezunt.November 25, 2020 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #1923138smerelParticipant
The question cannot be answered with general terms and rules because it would depend on
(1)who and what are the current other options
(2)how much of his personal faults are being kept personal and how much of his personal faults and views is he trying to force on everyone else
In the memory of recently departed David Dinkins I will say that I would a prefer a corrupt and somewhat anti-semitic person who strongly values law and order over a nice guy like David Dinkins for mayor any day. The Crown Heights pogrom would not have happened had the former been mayor. It did happen with the latter.November 25, 2020 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1923144GadolhadorahParticipant
It is NOT a binary choice. We do have public officials with an IQ above that of a carrot who have good policy instincts (albeit not on all issues) but don’t find it necessary to engage in pritzus, racist and misogynistic rants and bullying of anyone who doesn’t genuflect to them. Sadly, they typically don’t end up as the candidates from which we choose our Presidents.November 25, 2020 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1923159
John – I’m not talking about taking Trump to be dan him over the sheva mitzvos. (You sound silly when you think you’re the only one who knows basic knowledge about the sheva mitzvos that every child knows). This is about perception. What Clinton did wasn’t gilui arayos either. It’s what the world and our children saw.
And About even shlaima; it is again what people see and perceive.
I dump on Trump because I hate hypocrisy. Especially in our world. As long as frum people will be praising him b’kum v’aseh, I will be making sure others know they are hypocrites. I’m not sure what me hating a rasha has to do with self hate Dr. Freud.November 25, 2020 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1923161
really? That’s your new calling, to make sure you expose frum people as hypocrites? That’s really sad, and a huge waste of your anger. You would be much better working it thru with someone who can help you let go.
Post script – Almost all frum people I know are trump supporters. NOT ONE supports his character or praises him b’kum v’aseh. Seriously, I understand your anguish but you’re barking up the wrong trees.November 26, 2020 7:50 am at 7:50 am #1923254CTLAWYERParticipant
Glad to be part of the frum people who are not (and have never been) Trump supporters.
Business dealings going back more than 40 years showed me what he is/was.
It’s not all about making or accumulating moneyNovember 26, 2020 7:52 am at 7:52 am #1923260
It’s very sad that assimilated frum Jews look to politicians for role modeling in morality. Had you done any research or read any biographies about past US presidents, you would know that immorality was ubiquitous among them. Frum Jews voted for Trump because he championed a safe, law-and-order America, didn’t glorify Muslims and vilify Jews, and offered policies that boosted the economy. It’s pretty straight forward.November 26, 2020 9:34 am at 9:34 am #1923278
Also, the comment that the halachos related to the sheva mitzvos bnei noach are known to “every child” – very ignorant and very disturbing.November 26, 2020 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1923281
There are many beautifully written biographies about past and present gedolim that can serve as examples of extraordinary people living exemplary lives. Highly recommended. Or come to E”Y and do a Gedolim tour or learn in kollel with contemporary talmidei chachomim.November 26, 2020 9:49 am at 9:49 am #1923314
“It’s very sad that assimilated frum Jews look to politicians for role modeling in morality.”
I don’t believe they do. I think the rest of your post explains it wellNovember 26, 2020 10:33 am at 10:33 am #1923319johnkletsParticipant
Agreeing with Dbrim and Syag. Trump hatred among frum jews does not come out a place of frumkeit and yidishkeit; it’s rather a certain worldview boosted by the media and by the political correct people which they try wrongly to affiliate it with daas tora and halachaNovember 26, 2020 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1923378
Syag – just a quick observation. In many of your posts criticizing someone, you suggest that they need help. Like in your post suggesting I “work it out with someone else”. Wondering what is up with that.November 26, 2020 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #1923371
syag – unfortunately you are wrong, finding hypocrisy in our people is not a new “calling”. I’m not ashamed to say that my anger is a bit strong. I don’t apologize for it though. I think what I am saying needs to be said.
I have no clue how you say that frum trump supporters haven’t been ‘kum v’aseh hen they have huge car rally’s for him throughout Brooklyn. When there are Trump-Pence signs all over the place. When R’ Shmuel Kamenetsky endorses him. When bein gavra l’gavra, by kiddush and shabbos meals, when our kids are around we sit and say what a king he is and even laugh at his latest insults to others. On and on… b’kum v’asehNovember 26, 2020 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1923393
I “work it out with someone else”. Wondering what is up with that.
honest answer? Because I hear what you are saying and I hear what you aren’t saying and I firmly believe that when we (all of us humans) take our anger online we usually get a bunch of people either supporting us in our anger, or yelling back and perpetuating our anger. I firmly believe that when someone has anger from pain, the best, healthiest and most productive thing they can do is address it, either with a good friend, mentor or professional, and work it thru. It makes for a better rest-of-your-life, it heals some of the pain and extinguishes a lot of anger. I meant it in kindness, whether you accept that or not.November 27, 2020 8:56 am at 8:56 am #1923665
It’s probably too late but I never responded to your post. The short answer is that my kids maga hat and trump mask were to support having trump in office. Making sure my kids voted before leaving town was to keep trump in office. Much of the fanfare I experiences was to keep him in office. And if I would have joined a car parade it would have been for the same reason.
When bein gavra l’gavra, by kiddush and shabbos meals, when our kids are around we sit and say what a king he is and even laugh at his latest insults to others. On and on… b’kum v’aseh
Is not something I ever witnessed, or heard about. If you actually did have that experience, I would say it speaks out alot less about Judaism and alot more about who you have chosen to spend your time with.
Good shabbosNovember 27, 2020 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1923730charliehallParticipant
“I will say that I would a prefer a corrupt and somewhat anti-semitic person who strongly values law and order”
Well Trump is both somewhat anti-Semitic and cares not one iota about law and order when it limits his own conduct.November 27, 2020 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1923731charliehallParticipant
“frum people as hypocrites?”
When religious people support a rasha like Trump they expose themselves as hypocrites. No Trump supporting religious person, Jew or Christian will ever be have any credibility when they complain about licentiousness or corruption in society.November 27, 2020 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1923738
Charlie- keep your trump opinions to trump. Your generalizations to frum jews is digusting and offensive, whether you care or not. You have stooped to levels in motzei shem ra on huge portions of klal yisroel that i never would have expected from someone of your caliber. You have your liberal government, now MOVE ON!December 1, 2020 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1924839
Racist- Have you ever heard of Ben Carson, Paris Dennard, Kevin Daniels, Katrina Peirson etc.
Misogynist- Ever heard of Kellyanne Conway- first women to run a successful presidential campaign
Sara Sanders- First mom EVER to be press secretary
Stephanie Grisham- First single mom to be press secretary
(Kayleigh McEnany, Kimberly Guilfoyle, Katrina Pierson, Karen Dunn Kelley, Gina Haspel, Elisabeth DeVos, etc.)
If trump hates black people and/or women why in the world would he hire them?!
Also, are women so fragile that they cant take an insult? When Trump insults men they laugh it off but the women are literal snowflakes that they cant take an insult. Misogyny= A hatred toward women. He insults men the same if not more than women.December 1, 2020 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1924947ChananiaLParticipant
He’s the best President Israel has ever had. Nothing else matters for a large segment of “Orthodox” voters.December 1, 2020 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1925000hujuParticipant
How far is too far? My office is on the 17th floor. When the elevator is out of order, it is too far to use the stairs.December 1, 2020 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1925006
T2024 – So, by that logic, if someone has Jews working for them in some capacity guess they can’t be antisemitc. I am sure we all know how true this must be. When one looks back to Nazi Germany, Jews apparently were not employed by antisemites, and definitely not in high positions, prior to the shoah.December 1, 2020 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1925011
Please check your history. I’m pretty sure once anti Semitism became the norm those Jews working under anti Semites were fired. Also, why is it that every single time there’s a political discussion people bring up the holocaust? PLEASE STOP TRIVIALIZING THE HOLOCAUST WITH YOUR BAD ANALOGIES!December 1, 2020 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1925015
For all of you calling him an anti semite-
HERE’S A DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE WASHINGTON POST:
“He passed an executive order that defines the Jewish people as a nationality for purposes of federal civil rights law, an effort to step up enforcement against episodes of anti-Semitism on college campuses”
“That means schools could lose federal funding if they fail to combat discrimination against Jewish students.”December 1, 2020 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1925016
AAAAAAAAAAND he pulled funding from a college that had an anti Semitic speaker. Keep in mind he doesn’t have a lot of political gain bc 1.The media will barely report it and 2. College educated/unaffiliated Jews don’t vote for him!
TRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPTRUMPDecember 1, 2020 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1925022
Statistics show that the only group of people who Trump lost votes with were WHITE MEN!!! He won some more votes with white women, he gained A LOT with black women, men and Latinos. Why would they all decide to vote for him? HMMMMM…. Maybe bc African-American unemployment and poverty rates were at record lows?, He was the candidate who stood for LAW AND ORDER., A lot of Latinos came from socialist countries and they see Joe Biden being a little too soft on socialists.December 1, 2020 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1925048
Did I say Trump was an antisemite?
But glad you agree with my point that antisemites can employ Jews in high positions.
The implications are that your examples of elevating women or black people to various positions are not necessarily by themselves refutation of claims that he is misogynist or racist.
Not even saying he is misogynist or racist, rather I think mainly he is a supreme narcissist and thinks everyone not a member of his cult of personality is a traitor. And, he will use any and all language no matter how despicable to refer to those he disagrees with. If on the other hand your are a member of his cult, he would be hard pressed to find anything you do wrong (so long as you don’t challenge him). Even going so far as to seemingly praising white supremacists.December 1, 2020 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1925059
Did I say Trump was an antisemite?
No. I didn’t say you said that. I said TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO SAY
No one not even his supporters will deny the fact that he has character flaws. He has criticized his supporters (or cult members as you call them) by the way.
“I think mainly he is a supreme narcissist” Who just put out a 768 page memoir about what a great man he is? It was BARAK OBAMA! That’s a narcissist if I’ve ever seen one.
“And, he will use any and all language no matter how despicable to refer to those he disagrees with”
I don’t know if you’ve forgotten or don’t know but Joe Biden said in 2012 about Mitt Romney “He’s gonna put ya’ll back in chains” talking to black people. I don’t know about you but I think I think that’s pretty despicable.
If you are trying to convince me that one side is bad you can’t use criticism that applies to the other side as well!December 1, 2020 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #1925060
When you classify other commenters as evil or a cult member, you make it difficult to have a rational conversation.December 2, 2020 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1925095
Trump wrote 19 books before being President. Obama and Bush are at four or five. Trump could have invested Daddy’s money and been just as well off (Fred was a good businessman). Instead he scammed people and did not pay his bills (he took advantage of the bankruptcy laws if you recall his brag from his 2016 campaign).
Oh, and you had to look to 2012 to find something Biden said you don’t like.
Yeah. And these guys are the supreme narcissists and I am the hypocrite.
Seriously, are you even being serious or are you just being a troll. As they say, don’t feed the trolls, so I am out of this.December 2, 2020 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1925080torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
They dont have any legitimate arguments, and so they resort to demonizing. This has been going on for 4yrs now…..December 2, 2020 12:38 am at 12:38 am #1925123
He didn’t say book, he said memoir. Bush wrote one memoir. Only 497 pages. Obama wrote at least 2. Trump wrote none.
And what does the rest of that paragraph have to do with the conversation. Nothing. He calls obamas memoir narcissistic and you spend 9 lines calling trump names totally outside topic. And then you call him a troll. C’mon man. Lay off.December 2, 2020 1:46 am at 1:46 am #1925130RatingStheRumpusParticipant
There’s no limit to what Trump can get away with. He was caught using taxpayer dollars to incentivize a US ally in need to interfere in US politics, and his supporters think that’s a “hoax.” He’s the only president in my lifetime to have several former cabinet members beg the public not to reelect him. Doesn’t matter, they’re RHINOs now. He’s spreading conspiracy theories about an election he lost by the same margin in the swing states as his “landslide” 2016 win. Who cares.
His supporters wouldn’t mind if he shot someone on Fifth Ave. That’s how cults of personality work. Stalin and Mao preserved their cults after starving millions of citizens to death. Their supporters found a way to rationalize it. Trump too can do no wrong.December 2, 2020 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1925133
RSR – i firmly believe you are welcome to your opinions of trump and thoughts/fantasies/nightmares about everything he does, but i for one am really tired of being included in these vile spewings. Im not a cultist, and few to none of the comments about “what his supporters think” actually apply to me or most of us. So the question is; why do I have to take this trash? Can’t you hate on him and leave us out of it? And secondly, do we really have to listen to this for another 4 years? Maspik kvar. Move on.December 2, 2020 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1925184
These comments are like straight out of a dystopian nightmare. You think Trump’s 19 books are not about how great he is? Right. Look at his books and then read my comment and you would understand why calling Trump a lousy businessmen is spot on.
Trump is a narcissist who built a cult around him who he sells his lies to. He is a scam artist.
You want to not be considered part of the cult, maybe post comments that are not ridiculous. Anyone that suggests that Obama’s books or Biden’s comment from 2012 somehow makes them bigger narcissists or show they talk worse than Trump is clearly part of the cult. And it is funny, because many in the cult celebrate Trump’s vile language and narcissism. Really the only criteria to be in the cult is unwavering devotion to Trump and inability to recognize his flaws, or at least inability to recognize that his flaws are not good for a President to have.December 2, 2020 8:12 am at 8:12 am #1925209
Are you saying you don’t know what a memoir is, or just that you don’t want to admit you made a mistake?
And if you wanted to be honest, you seem way more obssessed with trump than I have ever been.December 2, 2020 8:14 am at 8:14 am #1925208ubiquitinParticipant
“Im not a cultist”
you are .
Normally your posts sort of make sense. When it comes to Trump you throw all sense out the window. for example “He didn’t say book, he said memoir. Bush wrote one memoir. Only 497 pages. Obama wrote at least 2. Trump wrote none.”
In this context what’s the difference between a book and a memoir? The books Trump wrote aren’t novels they are books extolling how great he (allegedly) is. Ive read several of them. They are not much different than memoirs (Except less heavy on fact)
This is how one review described ArT of the Deal . “Part memoir and part how-to, this is the first book by Trump, the billionaire New York real estate developer who looks like a movie star and acts like a showboat gambler. ”
And don’t forget how we got here it was in response to someone pointing out “I think mainly he is a supreme narcissist” [regarding Trump]
Is there any doubt that a person who says “I alone can fix it” is a supreme narcissist? There shouldn’t be for non-cult members .December 2, 2020 8:19 am at 8:19 am #1925213
ubiq – haha, cute. Either you’re getting sloppy or you are just caught up in the other posters whirlwind. You are too smart and know me too well to use the term cult member on me. PuhleaseDecember 2, 2020 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1925269
Thanks ubiq. Beyond odd that people are having trouble with this. Did I suggest that Obama’s book was not a memoir? It is really odd and feels like I am dealing with people unhinged from reality. My point, which you elaborated on nicely, was clear enough. I guess when a cult is having a crisis of belief it is expected that the disconnect from reality grows.December 2, 2020 11:44 am at 11:44 am #1925274☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Really the only criteria to be in the cult is unwavering devotion to Trump and inability to recognize his flaws, or at least inability to recognize that his flaws are not good for a President to have.
If someone is pro-Trump but recognizes his flaws, are they a cultist?December 2, 2020 12:06 pm at 12:06 pm #1925286
At this point after all the attacks Trump has made on American Democracy if you are still pro-Trump you either don’t care about American Democracy or you are in the cult and believe whatever he does is automatically the best.December 2, 2020 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1925289
Every single one of us has said multiple times that he has flaws! Plenty of them! If Donald Trump shoot someone I would 100% want him in jail! I can guarantee you that all of us Trump supporters on here would NOT vote for someone who shot someone. Find someone who would and argue with them! Why argue with us about something we wouldn’t do?!December 2, 2020 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1925291
Maybe his google dictionary is broken…December 2, 2020 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1925293
a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
None of us have veneration for Donald Trump! We are happy with how he treated Israel, how many jobs he created, etc. None of us said he has no flaws! None of us said he is pure! We believe that actions speak louder than words and honestly I don’t care how many times he calls people names it won’t change the fact that he’s been great for America!December 2, 2020 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1925301☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
At this point after all the attacks Trump has made on American Democracy if you are still pro-Trump you either don’t care about American Democracy or you are in the cult and believe whatever he does is automatically the best.
Is TDS similar to being in a cult?
The fact that you can’t accept a differing opinion about how he has had an effect on our democracy is pretty closed-minded, and that you think anyone who is pro-Trump thinks whatever he does is automatically true is not even close to reality. Maybe we can define cult to include that since the definition seems to evolve with every post.December 2, 2020 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1925367ubiquitinParticipant
“know me too well to use the term cult member on me”
The distinction between Trump’s 19 books describing how smart rich and good at deal making he is, as not being indicative of a narcissist personality because they are not “memoirs” but Obama’s 2 memoirs are sign of narcissist could only be made by a cultistDecember 2, 2020 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1925388HealthParticipant
TRUMP 2024 -“None of us have veneration for Donald Trump!”
Excuse me – you can’t talk Logic to these Libs that Post here!
They worship the DemonCrat Party – No Matter What.
When Obama threw EY under the Bus, they didn’t care.
When Crazy, Commy Joe tries to do like his Mentor, do you think these Libs here will Say BOO?!?
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