January 18, 2012 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #601696ayshosheeParticipant
how is it possible that Hashem chooses your basheret for u 40 days before ur born if u and ur basheret are not born at the same time boy is usually a couple years older which means that Hashem did it 40 days before the guy was born?January 18, 2012 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #844975oomisParticipant
Hahsem knows which neshamos are destined to be together.January 18, 2012 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #844976
It might (I stress might – have no source for this) be why it says bas ploni, liploni . Of course, this explanation has many holes, not the least of it is that it doesn’t explain how it works when bas ploni is older than ploni.
Then again, I don’t understand how krias yam suf worked either, and hashem had no problems pulling that off, so I figure do your hishtadlus and live with tamim tihyeh I’m hashem elokecha.January 19, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #844977ZeesKiteParticipant
Oomis, not that you need my approval, I too believe that is the correct answer.January 19, 2012 12:05 am at 12:05 am #844978
1) Tos. says the bas kol is for the zachor.
2) Bas ploni doesn’t identify the girl, just her father.
3) Some rishonim say that zivug rishon/zivug sheini doesn’t mean first marriage/second marriage, so many people might not be marrying their zivug rishon, and therefore not the person mentioned in the bas kol.
The bottom line is as apy says; do normal hishtadlus but have bitachon in Hashem.January 19, 2012 12:07 am at 12:07 am #844979
The gemara in mesches Sanhedrian 22 explains that it this idea of harder than krias yam suf is zivug sheini and the 40 days is zivug rishon,and zivug sheini goes based on ones deeds (Sotah 2).January 19, 2012 12:16 am at 12:16 am #844980
Tashbatz on this issue : http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1381&st=&pgnum=143&hilite=January 19, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #844981Emunas ItechaMember
There is no such thing as “impossible” for Hashem. Also, for Hashem there is no concept of “time.” Hashem knows what He is doing… don’t worry :-).January 19, 2012 1:28 am at 1:28 am #844982
I have a “diffent” question about this.
How is it possible that a bas kol announces 40 days before but AZ says that not every girl has a guy?
Is it possible that a girl loses out because all the guys in the world are marrying younger girls? Do you mean to think that every marriage that happens today is the wrong one except for the ones where they are the same age and they get a “hechsher tzedek” from NASI?January 19, 2012 1:40 am at 1:40 am #844983
PBA: I cant tell if your joking or not(I assume you are). The gemara(sotah 2) seems to be focusing on the man and according to his deeds.A man can also marry many women so maybe that is part of the chesbon.January 19, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #844984
I am not joking. I don’t get it.January 19, 2012 2:29 am at 2:29 am #844985essy8Member
i think PBA is making a great point. not to discount hishtadlus, but many times all the talk of the “shidduch crises” and “not enough boys” seems to show a lack in bitachon.January 19, 2012 3:01 am at 3:01 am #844986
PBA: If you read the gemara b’pahstus the 40 days before is only by a zachor and if you look at tosfos dh:kodem it is not necessarily the same age.January 19, 2012 3:19 am at 3:19 am #844987Sam2Participant
It’s not 40 days before the baby is born. The Gemara says 40 days before the Vlad is formed. Since the Vlad is formed 40 days after conception, 40 days before that means conception. (Not that this point matters for this discussion.)January 19, 2012 3:22 am at 3:22 am #844988
Yeah, how could there be a bas kol by conception, if the gemara also says that the gender can change until sometime in the middle I forget when?January 19, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #844989chelsealewMember
Hashem knows what gender it’s going to be. But I heard that there are five possible people a person could marry, depending on what stage they’re in of life. Also, the person that’s announced that one is destined to marry, that’s the person they would marry only if they’re on the madreiga they’re supposed to be on.January 19, 2012 3:32 am at 3:32 am #844990
If someone has 10 daughters, which one of his bas plonis was referred to by the bas kol? Maybe this is what is meant by not enough boys?January 19, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #844991AZParticipant
“How is it possible that a bas kol announces 40 days before but AZ says that not every girl has a guy?”
Did I really??
“Do you mean to think that every marriage that happens today is the wrong one except for the ones where they are the same age”
Every marriage, of course not, Many marriages of course yes.
Is that a problem, of course not.
Just look around and see all the older singles many of whom b’derech hateva won’t be getting married. Sure seems like someone took their bas kol zivug….
For all PRACTICAL purposes the notion of the bas kol is irrelevant as no one will ever know who it was mentioned for them by the bas kol.
One can have a wonderdful marriage with a spouse who wasn’t in the bas kol, and one can have a rotten marriage with a spouse who was in the bas kol…
Now for a short haskafik lesson,
for whatever it’s worth.
my faith isn’t shaken by the notion that many people are married and raise wonderful familes despite not being married to their “basherte”,
It is challenging to accept that hashem’s plan was for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of young women to be brought into this world and not have a chance to get married. If that is it, so be it but it would be hard to accept…..
alas… that’s not the emes… the emse is that we mortals have causes the problem… That’s based on the basic tenet of bechira…January 19, 2012 4:12 am at 4:12 am #844992
Sam, are you sure you don’t have to go back and listen to some online shiur again? Usually your first assertion is completely baseless.January 19, 2012 4:17 am at 4:17 am #844993
Solid proof that the guy in the bas kol is older. Why does it say “bas plonis”? Because she hasn’t been born ywt, so she has no existence to mention. Therefore, she is refered to as the future daughter of somebody real. But it is “l’ploni” – he already exists.
He’s probably at least 11 days old at that point or he’d be called rach. So there is a solid year age difference right there. The bas kol seems OK with it, too bad for AZJanuary 19, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #844994Sam2Participant
Squeak: Was that some sort of attack/constructive criticism against me? Care to elaborate? I’m honestly not sure what you meant.January 19, 2012 5:02 am at 5:02 am #844995
So there is a solid year age difference right there. The bas kol seems OK with it, too bad for AZ
AZ can confirm or deny, but I think he’d be ok with a one year difference.
BTW, I don’t follow your cheshbon – where do you get a year?January 19, 2012 5:21 am at 5:21 am #844996
Unless you are privy to bas kols, just engage in the proper hishtadlus and remember hashem runs the world. Tamim tihyeh I’m hashem Elokecha. I won’t sit here and tell people what constitutes proper hishtadlus, that is for your rav/rebbe/rebbetzin/parents or whoever it is you turn to in life.January 19, 2012 5:39 am at 5:39 am #844997
Squeak: I don’t know if you mean me or Sam2,but it is not nice nonetheless.January 19, 2012 6:47 am at 6:47 am #844998NechomahParticipant
APY, you gotta be careful with that autocorrect:
Then again, I don’t understand how krias yam suf worked either, and hashem had no problems pulling that off, so I figure do your hishtadlus and live with tamim tihyeh I’m hashem elokecha.January 19, 2012 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #844999ayshosheeParticipant
thx daas now it makes more sense they dont tell u that when they tell u about this whole thing
lol pba were not talking abt the shidduch crisis but wtvrJanuary 19, 2012 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #845000mommamia22Participant
I don’t believe for a minute that many women were born never to have a zivug.
That would be just plain cruel, and the borei olam isn’t cruel.
I think some people might push away options because of personal growth that they have to do. Even then, I don’t believe all is lost. I’ve seen women of all ages get married and make really happy marriages, focusing on trying to find one’s zivug is futile. It’s a distraction and I don’t think we’re meant to ask ourselves “is this my bashert”? I think we just have to look for someone that we can grow with who’s ideas are not so foreign from ours that it would cause daily conflict. Once you’re married, I don’t think you care if you married your zivug, you just want to be happy,doesn’t the Torah say that Leah imeinu was meant to marry eisav and that she davened for mercy and she was given to yaakov? A bashert doesn’t mean that they’re meant to be happy with them.January 19, 2012 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #845001
Sam, please accept my apology for that comment last night. If anything was baseless it was what I said about you.January 19, 2012 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #845003babygooseParticipant
i din’t read other posts, but read your question. first of all ” 40 yom kodem Yetziras havlad” before created in the womb, not born.
just to note:
i heard in a shiur by a renowned darshan that the bashert is only destined for the girls. maybe this explains the gap bet. amount of boys and girls. YES, some boys were created for being bachlors! so you’ll ask about the older girl singels who never marry – they never got to their bashert. it was bashert they shouldn’t meet their bashert.
some mefarshim say a hub and wife are one neshama split in two parts. some neshamos aren’t split.January 19, 2012 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #845004
“APY, you gotta be careful with that autocorrect”
Effective immediately, it has been disabled. Thank you for pointing it out. Now, if the MODS can somehow go back and fix it….or delete it.January 19, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #845005Lomed Mkol AdamMember
Popa bar abba: See Gemara Nidah 13B, which states that boys who marry young girls have made the wrong choice and prevent Moshiach from coming since they cause less Jewish children to be born. The Gemara does not question how this fits together with the Bas Kol.January 19, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #845006BTGuyParticipant
How is it possible?
One has to accept there are things that are beyond our comprehension.January 19, 2012 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #845007
The Maharal in chiddushei aggados (sotah beis amud alef)writes the following (after explaining how/why shidduchim is like krias yam suf, 1st zivug, 2nd zivug):
??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???
??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??????
?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????
????? ???? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ????. (?????).
He doesnt explain why, just that the notion behind the question is false.
I apologize if the copy and paste doesnt work cleanly and some words are unreadable.January 19, 2012 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #845008
(I started looking into this inyan a little) For what it is worth, the gemara in moed katan, yud ches amud beis, brings down the same thing about the bas kol, but instead of 40 days before yetiras havlad, it says “bchal yom vyom”. Not sure why the different girsa or if any meforshim explain the difference.
Also, there is a (famous?) Teshuvas Harambam (siman tav lamed vav)to “Ovadia the Ger”, he discusses shidduchim as it relates to a persons bechira (even though there is a bas kol) as part of the broader discussion of hakol bidei shamayim chutz miyiras shamayim. I wont venture to write how the Rambam explains this without thoroughly going through it.January 20, 2012 3:11 am at 3:11 am #845009oomisParticipant
Oomis, not that you need my approval, I too believe that is the correct answer. “
Thank you very much. Even when I do not seek or need approval, it’s nice to get it. At least, sometimes. 🙂January 20, 2012 3:51 am at 3:51 am #845010computer777Member
What’s the purpose of the bas kol if nobody can hear it?January 20, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #845011
And why repeat it every day (girsa in moed kattan), presumabely the bas kol is calling out the same bas ploni, liploni.January 20, 2012 4:37 am at 4:37 am #845012
i heard in a shiur by a renowned darshan that the bashert is only destined for the girls.
Tosafos says the opposite.
maybe this explains the gap bet. amount of boys and girls. YES, some boys were created for being bachlors!
There are more unmarried “older” females than males, which would actually fit into the idea that the bas kol was said about the males. In truth, however, it’s possible that few really marry according to the bas kol nowadays.January 20, 2012 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #845013
The meiri in moed kattan (or is it ran?) Ties in this bas kol with the “other” less famous bas kol mentioned in conjunction with this one. “Sadeh ploni liploni” also calls out the nedunya he will get from ploni along with plonis daughter.
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