March 6, 2012 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #602383
A friend of mine from Israel came to visit me last week. He told me something interesting that he heard in Israel. He was at a shiur from a well-known Rav. I won’t say the name because some people will likely be upset by what was said.
He was speaking about R’ Elyashiv. He said, “When we daven for a sick person, the first thing we ask for in the mi shebeirach is mercy. We say b’schar ze HB”H yemaleh rachamav alav, l’hachlimoh… First comes mercy, then comes healing.
Currently, R’ Elyashiv is not in very good condition. According to a recent report, he was also in extreme pain. Why do we allow this? Obviously we want the gadol hador to have a full recovery. But we have a rule – we don’t rely on miracles. Doing everything we can to keep him alive when we really need a miracle is wrong. He is suffering. Why put him through that? If it were anyone else, we’d have let go already. Putting him through this suffering because we want him alive is selfish. The merciful thing to do now is to let go. Let’s daven that Hashem has mercy on him – and doesn’t prolong his suffering.”
I honestly don’t know how to feel about this. As he said, obviously we want R’ Elyashiv to be alive and well. But is it selfish of us?March 6, 2012 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #858510
every second of life is precious no matter whose it is.March 6, 2012 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #858511
I have not heard or read anywhere that R’Elyashiv Shlit”a was/is in pain.
Whether being in pain should make a difference in our tefilos is a question for the biggest gedolim, not commenters here in the C.R.March 6, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #858512
“Why do we allow this?”
I don’t know who we is this should be handled by the family and no one else its not anyone’s business what the family decides to do you don’t know what his wishes were in regards to situations like this.March 7, 2012 12:35 am at 12:35 am #858513
The Gemara says that one Malchus cannot touch another even by a hairsbreadth. Rav Elyashiv won’t live longer than he’s supposed to anyway. We should therefore Daven that he lives every second possible.March 7, 2012 1:16 am at 1:16 am #858514
Sam2 – He will live as long as he’s supposed to anyway, so therefore daven ? 1)logic ? 2)I was under the impression that davening actually works ? Any reason to say that a lifetime cannot be shortened or lengthened for whatever reason ?
The Poskim discuss the possibility of davening that someone die, if he’s in pain.March 7, 2012 1:33 am at 1:33 am #858515
Actually that was a ‘machlokes’ between Rabbeinu Hakadosh’s maid and the Chachamim.
??? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ????????March 7, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #858516
Logician: Of course Tefillah works. I’m saying that it can’t extend the lifespan of a leader of K’lal Yisrael past its appointed time because Malchuyos can’t be Nog’in Zeh Bazeh.March 7, 2012 3:34 am at 3:34 am #858517
Yes, the Ran in Nedarim (40a) brings the story with Rebbe as proof that you may daven so.
ZK- why then are you mispalel not like the halachah ?March 7, 2012 4:02 am at 4:02 am #858518
this discussion is not apropos to the situation.
about 10 days ago the rav shlita was much improved and they were talking about the possibility of sendimg him home.
he now has contracted pneumonia. May hashem send him a refuah shlaima b’karov.
I think this thread should be closed.March 7, 2012 4:32 am at 4:32 am #858519
I’m sorry nitpicker. Chazal had no problem with this conversation, why should we.
Sam2 – interesting. So a leader is different in that Tefilah cannot shorten or lengthen his life ? I dunno. I see your point from that Gemara though, gotta look at what they say there. Why should it be intrinsically different than anything else, which is also nigzar, and tefilah works ?March 7, 2012 6:08 am at 6:08 am #858520
Seems to me that Chachamim knew what they were doing. The Mrs., as smart (she truly was) and devoted as she was, didn’t and couldn’t understand the inestimable great merit and benefit the generation begets by having a Tzadik as such living (or just barely living) in it’s midst. Hence the decree of ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????.March 7, 2012 6:13 am at 6:13 am #858521
Logician: I would think so. (Actually, maybe it could shorten his life but definitely not lengthen it.) See the Machlokes Tannaim in Yevamos (it’s at the end of a Perek somewhere in the 40s or 50s, I think) about shortening or extending lives.March 7, 2012 9:44 am at 9:44 am #858522
you did not aprehend what I wrote.March 7, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #858523
“aprehend” is what they do to suspects.March 7, 2012 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #858524
nitpicker – reading it over, I MAY be comprehending what you might have possibly been attempting to try to convey. Got it.
ZK – The Rishonim, as mentioned earlier, bring her actions as proof, meaning she was correct.March 7, 2012 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #858525
ZeesKite: That’s not the point of saying that anyone who says that Rebbe died would have been stabbed. Also, Chavivin Tzadikim B’misasan Yoser Mib’chayeihen. I don’t think your P’shat in the story with Rebbe and his maidservant is correct.March 8, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #858526
“aprehend” is what they do to suspects.
Spelled wrong. However:
verb (used with object)
1. to take into custody; arrest by legal warrant or authority: The police apprehended the burglars.
2. to grasp the meaning of; understand, especially intuitively; perceive.
3. to expect with anxiety, suspicion, or fear; anticipate: apprehending violence.
Try a dictionary before “correcting” someone.March 8, 2012 5:02 am at 5:02 am #858527
Apprehend [and apprehensive], comprehend, prehensile – root “grasp.” Like “chop” in Yiddish. Interesting tidbit to explain the variations in meaning. 🙂March 8, 2012 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #858528
I asked this very question to my Rebbi when I was a Bachur, when we were Davening for R’ Shach. He explained that the very existence of a Gadol in our physical world protects the Dor (Presumably the Gadol himself would want to be here for this same reason!). I have heard this concept many times since, and as has been mentioned already, it is Mefurash in many Gemaros. I so not understand what this Rav said at all.March 9, 2012 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #858529
I think a lot of posters here are Am Haaratzim with a little Torah knowledge. We don’t know when a person is supposed to die -Hashem doesn’t tell us this info. So we assume that a person is supposed to live as long as Moshe Rabbeynu -that’s why we say Ad Meah V’essrim. This is called B’keetzo (Right time). Some people die Lo B’keetzo & we say this in the Nesaneh Tokef. We Daven for a Choileh that they should live till their B’keetzo.
For anybody, even medical professionals like me, to say an unconscious person is in pain is ludicrous & Rishous. These so-called medical professionals just want to pull the plug. Pain is a symptom, not a sign. Look it up in a dictionary, if you don’t know what it means.
IMHO, had he gotten decent medical care from the git go -he wouldn’t be where he is now.
We have to Daven for a Refuah & for the collapse of the Medina.
The latter not just because of the Medina’s Kefira, but because they set up socialized medicine. Socialized medicine creates an environment of bad medical care. We already see the decline even in this country as the liberals have put the gov. so much in control of medicine here! They control so much we are but a hairbreadth away from total socialized medicine!March 10, 2012 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #858530
I thought of a good Mashal over Shabbos. Imagine that a group of people are standing on the edge of a cliff. One of them is a powerful bodybuilder, who manages to grab onto the edge and prevent himself from falling down. You are one of a number of others who grab onto him and cling for dear life. He is holding himself and the rest above the gorge, using his strength to prevent everyone from falling to certain death below. He is certainly in some distress, straining his muscles to the extreme. How long do you hold on?
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