September 4, 2012 5:39 am at 5:39 am #1003435CuriosityParticipant
It’s extremely difficult to make the case that any benefits of having multiple wives outweigh the detriments.September 4, 2012 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1003436icedMember
Curiosity: While that may be true for many or even most, for others the benefits may be worthwhile. The decision needs to be made on an individual basis.September 4, 2012 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1003437CuriosityParticipant
Yeah iced… I know… That’s exactly what I said.September 12, 2012 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1003440WIYMember
Wow Mods are on vacation.September 12, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1003441sheinMember
So what *is* the reason Hashem allowed men to marry more than one wife (but not vice versa)?September 12, 2012 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1003442uneeqMember
WIY: “Bas Ploni l’Ploni” I think we have a Raaya that a boy can marry a girl whose father has the same name as he does.
I just asked a posek about this regarding setting up a shidduch this week. I was told that either the father or the prospective chosson would have to change or add a name.September 12, 2012 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #1003443golferParticipant
WIY, they’re back!
Are there posts missing?
Or was it just my imagination??
I guess now we know what the Mods do not consider a reason to get married…September 12, 2012 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1003444repharimMember
I have a hard enough time trying to figure out the female thought process of one wife. And I’m sure every female thought process is different than the next…..having to try to figure out two people at the same time? My brain would explode. (Not to mention that each wife would probably be CONSTANTLY comparing what you do to the other. Oh but you did this and that for her 30 times and only 29 times for me, don’t you love me as much as you love her!??!?!?
Back then it was probably easier to deal with multiple wives because you had more of the day to yourself but today…you work well into the evenings, back then soon as it was sundown everyone ran to get home because of robbers/killers/animals/etc.
Besides….I doubt you would find more than a tiny handful of women who would be willing to even do this.September 12, 2012 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1003445WIYMember
I know I was making a joke.September 12, 2012 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1003446sheinMember
repharim: You could probably make all the same arguments for having only one child.September 12, 2012 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1003447Sam2Participant
Uneeq: Many, many Poskim say that there is no reason to be Makpid on Tzava’as R’ Yehudah Hachassid. We’re not even Makpid on the whole Tzava’a. Just a few random points of it. It’s actually a very strange situation how the Minhagim by that developed.September 13, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1003448interjectionParticipant
“So what *is* the reason Hashem allowed men to marry more than one wife (but not vice versa)”
One answer is that shevet and chelek go by the father and it would cause too much confusion if we didn’t know who the father was.
But a man has an obligation to make his wife feel loved and he had to have her permission before marrying a second. And the second wife had to agree to enter a marriage where there already was another wife. It calls her a tzara because it’s telling the man that as much as he is allowed to have two wives it’s going to be huge pain for him.September 13, 2012 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1003449repharimMember
shein: except with kids your word can be the final law….good luck doing that with a wife.September 13, 2012 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1003450uneeqMember
Sam2: I don’t actually know the sources for this “minhag”, though my Posek is a major baki especially in all the hibi jibi nistar stuff. Being Sephardic may explain why he was machmir.April 21, 2013 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1003451Torah613TorahParticipant
bumping so that everyone who wants to discuss plural marriage can discuss it here and not hijack my bread theory of the shidduch crisis thread.April 23, 2013 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1003452ursketchingMember
you people sound like your so interested in having more then one wife. Go to someplace like yemen and the more the merrier.April 23, 2013 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1003453GG yekkeMember
i know of someone (sefardi) who grandfather is married to two ladies. (Not sure where they live because as far as i know according to English,American & Israeli law you are not allowed to marry two women)April 23, 2013 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1003454bizybodyParticipant
Different minhagim by different communities. It isn’t a halacha whether it is permissible to have more than one.April 24, 2013 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #1003455Sam2Participant
Yekke: In Israel, Teimanim who made Aliyah with more than one wife are allowed to remain married to both/all of them.April 25, 2013 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #1003456ChortkovParticipant
I had a chavrusa for a short while who was born in Yemen but moved to Israel as a child whose grandfather had four wives – and his grandmother was on her second marriage by then (divorced at age 12, she remarried that year and gave birth at 14, if I remember correctly)April 25, 2013 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1003457hahahahaMember
If you are so interested in this little part of Teimani lifestyle, why don’t you check out all the rest of their customsApril 25, 2013 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1003458dellsMember
Teimani customs are all beautiful and the closest to the original Mesorah from Har Sinai, Including their vocabulary.April 25, 2013 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1003459gavra_at_workParticipant
Hi Joe.April 25, 2013 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1003460computer777Participant
Teimani customs are all beautiful and the closest to the original Mesorah from Har Sinai, Including their vocabulary.
How do you know?April 25, 2013 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1003461benignumanParticipant
It is interesting that almost no Tannaim or Amoraim are described as having more than one wife.April 25, 2013 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #1003462SeilishMember
Are many tanoim or amoroim described as having divorced?April 26, 2013 1:35 am at 1:35 am #1003463squeakParticipant
Ergo, Chareidi = Teimani. See, I never knew that.April 26, 2013 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #1003464nfgo3Member
To HaLeVi: If you have 2 wives, it is obvious that you loved the first. Why else would you marry a second?April 29, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #1003465oomisParticipant
I haven’t really followed the thread much (probably should have, as I may be repeating something someone else already mentioned), but I did read Popa’s question. The word “snuah” is not translated in this possuk as “hated,” but as “the lesser loved.” Yaakov didn’t hate Leah, he loved Rochel more. The idea that the Torah is teaching is that one wife should not be treated better than another, and if the less-loved one has the first male child, HER child is the bechor.
If she were truly “snuah” to him, i.e., he actually hated her, is he required to divorce her?April 29, 2013 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #1003466popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Yes, thank you oomis for bringing this thread back on track.
So if I understand the implication of your post correctly, it is that if you have two wives you will like one better but will not hate either, but if you have only one wife you will hate her and divorce her.April 29, 2013 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1003467adamemes1Participant
The sefardim didnt accept the Cheirim by Rabbeinu Gershon. But they did implement a Shevuah not to marry two wives. If you review the shalos and tsuvos from the Gedolei Sefard including the Radvaz they all mention the Shevouah.April 29, 2013 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #1003468R.T.Participant
dells — “Teimani customs … Including their vocabulary.”
Yes, they are. But I think you meant to say pronunciation, instead of vocabulary.February 16, 2014 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1003469👑RebYidd23Participant
3 wives is good, 4 is the limit.February 16, 2014 6:54 am at 6:54 am #1003470bais yakov maidelParticipant
“So what *is* the reason Hashem allowed men to marry more than one wife (but not vice versa)?”
It’s very simple. We need to know who the father of a child is. (Think days pre-genetic testing). If a man has multiple partners, it poses no problem to this. A woman having multiple partners, on the other hand, would make it difficult or impossible to know who the father of the child is. Think of all the social repercussions this can cause. “I’m not supporting this kid.. he’s not mine, etc…” That’s also why a woman has to wait a prescribed amount of time before moving on to a new partner.
We don’t need to come up with all sorts of imaginary psychological reasons about why it “makes sense” for the torah to allow men to have multiple partners and women not. It’s just a simple fact of biology and a measure to ensure basic order in society. Not an outlet that men “need” any more than women.February 16, 2014 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1003471
Bais yakov maidel, I’m sorry, but that’s also hogwash.
The reason a woman can’t have multiple husbands is because once she has one, she’s an eishes ish, and kiddushin isn’t tofes. That’s lomdish speak for “because Hashem said”.
Any social reason you’ll try to give is going to be incomplete and dangerous.
Is it okay to have multiple husbands now that we have genetic testing? Is it okay if her husband hasn’t been seen in years but never gave a get? Is it okay if he’s in a hospital lying in a vegetative state?
No, because she’s still an eishes ish.February 16, 2014 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1003472popa_bar_abbaParticipant
bais yaakov maidel:
I would argue though that Hashem made the world in a way that makes sense, and that the parts fit together.February 16, 2014 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #1003473
Bym and popa, if you want to talk about what social benefits there are to living according to the Torah, that’s fine. But then popa’s right, because Hashem is smart enough to create a world in which there are (generally) multiple social benefits to following the Torah.February 16, 2014 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #1003474HaLeiViParticipant
The Torah is not a social benefit document. That is for the Rabanan or a present king. The Halacha of a woman not remarrying within three months is, in fact, Derabanan.
If you want discuss how the Mitzvos match social needs, philosophical reasoning or the Shiur Koma, that is fine. You can add reasons, and this has been done. But you must always remember what David Hamelech said, Lechal Tichla Ra’isi Ketz; Rechava Mitzvas’cha Me’od.February 16, 2014 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #1003475oomisParticipant
The Halacha of a woman not remarrying within three months is, in fact, Derabanan”
And that is specifically for the point of knowing if the woman is pregnant with her husband’s child, whether she is divorced or widowed. So please tell me, why does a woman who is clearly in her post-childbearing years, or one who has had the removal of her reproductive organs, ALSO have to wait that same amount of time to get married? Why must a woman who was an agunah for decades, not be able to marry immediately (same as her ex-husband can), when she is finally freed, and clearly has not lived with him for WAY past those three months?
And DY, while you are absolutely correct that the halacha of no concurrent multiple husbands is “because Hashem said so,” and because she becomes an aishes ish, perhaps Hashem said so davka because of exactly what Bais Yaakov Maidel said.
Were women to be able to marry more than one man at a time and be an eishes anashim, it would be very difficult (certainly in olden days, when there were no DNA tests) to know who fathered her children. From the standpoint of yerusha, bechora, Kohein, Levi, Yisrael, etc. this would create a real mishmash. So Hashem in his infinite wisdom, gave us laws that preclude such a tangled web to unweave, and though we cannot know His reasons for sure, just as with the laws of kashrus, we most certainly can see the benefits of those laws.February 16, 2014 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1003476
So please tell me, why does a woman who is clearly in her post-childbearing years, or one who has had the removal of her reproductive organs, ALSO have to wait that same amount of time to get married? Why must a woman who was an agunah for decades, not be able to marry immediately (same as her ex-husband can), when she is finally freed, and clearly has not lived with him for WAY past those three months?
That’s actually a machlokes (Yevamos 42b). The reason for the shittah which is machmir (and we pasken this way – S.A. E.H. 13) is “lo plug”.
As for the rest of your post, right, that’s what I said. We can suggest a partial reason, but it’s much, much deeper than anything we humans can think of.February 16, 2014 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1003477HaLeiViParticipant
In fact, even Divrei Sofrim are much deeper than that. Shlomo Hamelech gave over a thousand reasons for each one. The difference is though, that when it comes to a Derabanan we do deal with the reason given to apply a Heter to a certain circumstance or to decide if we must reinstate a forgotten Gezeira.February 16, 2014 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1003478yaakov doeParticipant
3 wives is the ideal, because it now takes 3 incomes to get by.February 16, 2014 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #1003479oyyoyyoyParticipant
first bais haleivi on ki sisa speaks about giving/understanding reasons to mitzvos at length. Bkitzur, like what DY is saying- first comes the mitzva, chok vloy yaavor. After you understand that nothing will change based on any reason you give, only then can you start getting into taamie hamitzvos . vayin sham.February 17, 2014 6:14 am at 6:14 am #1003480👑RebYidd23Participant
What are the detriments?
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