How many wives?

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Viewing 44 posts - 51 through 94 (of 94 total)
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  • #1003435

    Curiosity
    Participant

    It’s extremely difficult to make the case that any benefits of having multiple wives outweigh the detriments.

    #1003436

    iced
    Member

    Curiosity: While that may be true for many or even most, for others the benefits may be worthwhile. The decision needs to be made on an individual basis.

    #1003437

    Curiosity
    Participant

    Yeah iced… I know… That’s exactly what I said.

    #1003440

    WIY
    Member

    Wow Mods are on vacation.

    #1003441

    shein
    Member

    So what *is* the reason Hashem allowed men to marry more than one wife (but not vice versa)?

    #1003442

    uneeq
    Member

    WIY: “Bas Ploni l’Ploni” I think we have a Raaya that a boy can marry a girl whose father has the same name as he does.

    I just asked a posek about this regarding setting up a shidduch this week. I was told that either the father or the prospective chosson would have to change or add a name.

    #1003443

    golfer
    Participant

    WIY, they’re back!

    Are there posts missing?

    Or was it just my imagination??

    I guess now we know what the Mods do not consider a reason to get married…

    #1003444

    repharim
    Member

    I have a hard enough time trying to figure out the female thought process of one wife. And I’m sure every female thought process is different than the next…..having to try to figure out two people at the same time? My brain would explode. (Not to mention that each wife would probably be CONSTANTLY comparing what you do to the other. Oh but you did this and that for her 30 times and only 29 times for me, don’t you love me as much as you love her!??!?!?

    Back then it was probably easier to deal with multiple wives because you had more of the day to yourself but today…you work well into the evenings, back then soon as it was sundown everyone ran to get home because of robbers/killers/animals/etc.

    Besides….I doubt you would find more than a tiny handful of women who would be willing to even do this.

    #1003445

    WIY
    Member

    Uneeq

    I know I was making a joke.

    #1003446

    shein
    Member

    repharim: You could probably make all the same arguments for having only one child.

    #1003447

    Sam2
    Participant

    Uneeq: Many, many Poskim say that there is no reason to be Makpid on Tzava’as R’ Yehudah Hachassid. We’re not even Makpid on the whole Tzava’a. Just a few random points of it. It’s actually a very strange situation how the Minhagim by that developed.

    #1003448

    interjection
    Participant

    “So what *is* the reason Hashem allowed men to marry more than one wife (but not vice versa)”

    One answer is that shevet and chelek go by the father and it would cause too much confusion if we didn’t know who the father was.

    But a man has an obligation to make his wife feel loved and he had to have her permission before marrying a second. And the second wife had to agree to enter a marriage where there already was another wife. It calls her a tzara because it’s telling the man that as much as he is allowed to have two wives it’s going to be huge pain for him.

    #1003449

    repharim
    Member

    shein: except with kids your word can be the final law….good luck doing that with a wife.

    #1003450

    uneeq
    Member

    Sam2: I don’t actually know the sources for this “minhag”, though my Posek is a major baki especially in all the hibi jibi nistar stuff. Being Sephardic may explain why he was machmir.

    #1003451

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    bumping so that everyone who wants to discuss plural marriage can discuss it here and not hijack my bread theory of the shidduch crisis thread.

    #1003452

    ursketching
    Member

    you people sound like your so interested in having more then one wife. Go to someplace like yemen and the more the merrier.

    #1003453

    GG yekke
    Member

    i know of someone (sefardi) who grandfather is married to two ladies. (Not sure where they live because as far as i know according to English,American & Israeli law you are not allowed to marry two women)

    #1003454

    bizybody
    Participant

    Different minhagim by different communities. It isn’t a halacha whether it is permissible to have more than one.

    #1003455

    Sam2
    Participant

    Yekke: In Israel, Teimanim who made Aliyah with more than one wife are allowed to remain married to both/all of them.

    #1003456

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I had a chavrusa for a short while who was born in Yemen but moved to Israel as a child whose grandfather had four wives – and his grandmother was on her second marriage by then (divorced at age 12, she remarried that year and gave birth at 14, if I remember correctly)

    #1003457

    hahahaha
    Member

    If you are so interested in this little part of Teimani lifestyle, why don’t you check out all the rest of their customs

    #1003458

    dells
    Member

    Teimani customs are all beautiful and the closest to the original Mesorah from Har Sinai, Including their vocabulary.

    #1003459

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    dells

    Hi Joe.

    #1003460

    computer777
    Member

    Teimani customs are all beautiful and the closest to the original Mesorah from Har Sinai, Including their vocabulary.

    How do you know?

    #1003461

    benignuman
    Participant

    It is interesting that almost no Tannaim or Amoraim are described as having more than one wife.

    #1003462

    Seilish
    Member

    Are many tanoim or amoroim described as having divorced?

    #1003463

    squeak
    Participant
    #1003464

    nfgo3
    Member

    To HaLeVi: If you have 2 wives, it is obvious that you loved the first. Why else would you marry a second?

    #1003465

    oomis
    Participant

    I haven’t really followed the thread much (probably should have, as I may be repeating something someone else already mentioned), but I did read Popa’s question. The word “snuah” is not translated in this possuk as “hated,” but as “the lesser loved.” Yaakov didn’t hate Leah, he loved Rochel more. The idea that the Torah is teaching is that one wife should not be treated better than another, and if the less-loved one has the first male child, HER child is the bechor.

    If she were truly “snuah” to him, i.e., he actually hated her, is he required to divorce her?

    #1003466

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, thank you oomis for bringing this thread back on track.

    So if I understand the implication of your post correctly, it is that if you have two wives you will like one better but will not hate either, but if you have only one wife you will hate her and divorce her.

    #1003467

    adamemes1
    Participant

    The sefardim didnt accept the Cheirim by Rabbeinu Gershon. But they did implement a Shevuah not to marry two wives. If you review the shalos and tsuvos from the Gedolei Sefard including the Radvaz they all mention the Shevouah.

    #1003468

    R.T.
    Participant

    dells — “Teimani customs … Including their vocabulary.”

    Yes, they are. But I think you meant to say pronunciation, instead of vocabulary.

    #1003469

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    3 wives is good, 4 is the limit.

    #1003470

    bais yakov maidel
    Participant

    “So what *is* the reason Hashem allowed men to marry more than one wife (but not vice versa)?”

    It’s very simple. We need to know who the father of a child is. (Think days pre-genetic testing). If a man has multiple partners, it poses no problem to this. A woman having multiple partners, on the other hand, would make it difficult or impossible to know who the father of the child is. Think of all the social repercussions this can cause. “I’m not supporting this kid.. he’s not mine, etc…” That’s also why a woman has to wait a prescribed amount of time before moving on to a new partner.

    We don’t need to come up with all sorts of imaginary psychological reasons about why it “makes sense” for the torah to allow men to have multiple partners and women not. It’s just a simple fact of biology and a measure to ensure basic order in society. Not an outlet that men “need” any more than women.

    #1003471

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bais yakov maidel, I’m sorry, but that’s also hogwash.

    The reason a woman can’t have multiple husbands is because once she has one, she’s an eishes ish, and kiddushin isn’t tofes. That’s lomdish speak for “because Hashem said”.

    Any social reason you’ll try to give is going to be incomplete and dangerous.

    Is it okay to have multiple husbands now that we have genetic testing? Is it okay if her husband hasn’t been seen in years but never gave a get? Is it okay if he’s in a hospital lying in a vegetative state?

    No, because she’s still an eishes ish.

    #1003472

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    bais yaakov maidel:

    I would argue though that Hashem made the world in a way that makes sense, and that the parts fit together.

    #1003473

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bym and popa, if you want to talk about what social benefits there are to living according to the Torah, that’s fine. But then popa’s right, because Hashem is smart enough to create a world in which there are (generally) multiple social benefits to following the Torah.

    #1003474

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Torah is not a social benefit document. That is for the Rabanan or a present king. The Halacha of a woman not remarrying within three months is, in fact, Derabanan.

    If you want discuss how the Mitzvos match social needs, philosophical reasoning or the Shiur Koma, that is fine. You can add reasons, and this has been done. But you must always remember what David Hamelech said, Lechal Tichla Ra’isi Ketz; Rechava Mitzvas’cha Me’od.

    #1003475

    oomis
    Participant

    The Halacha of a woman not remarrying within three months is, in fact, Derabanan”

    And that is specifically for the point of knowing if the woman is pregnant with her husband’s child, whether she is divorced or widowed. So please tell me, why does a woman who is clearly in her post-childbearing years, or one who has had the removal of her reproductive organs, ALSO have to wait that same amount of time to get married? Why must a woman who was an agunah for decades, not be able to marry immediately (same as her ex-husband can), when she is finally freed, and clearly has not lived with him for WAY past those three months?

    And DY, while you are absolutely correct that the halacha of no concurrent multiple husbands is “because Hashem said so,” and because she becomes an aishes ish, perhaps Hashem said so davka because of exactly what Bais Yaakov Maidel said.

    Were women to be able to marry more than one man at a time and be an eishes anashim, it would be very difficult (certainly in olden days, when there were no DNA tests) to know who fathered her children. From the standpoint of yerusha, bechora, Kohein, Levi, Yisrael, etc. this would create a real mishmash. So Hashem in his infinite wisdom, gave us laws that preclude such a tangled web to unweave, and though we cannot know His reasons for sure, just as with the laws of kashrus, we most certainly can see the benefits of those laws.

    #1003476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So please tell me, why does a woman who is clearly in her post-childbearing years, or one who has had the removal of her reproductive organs, ALSO have to wait that same amount of time to get married? Why must a woman who was an agunah for decades, not be able to marry immediately (same as her ex-husband can), when she is finally freed, and clearly has not lived with him for WAY past those three months?

    That’s actually a machlokes (Yevamos 42b). The reason for the shittah which is machmir (and we pasken this way – S.A. E.H. 13) is “lo plug”.

    As for the rest of your post, right, that’s what I said. We can suggest a partial reason, but it’s much, much deeper than anything we humans can think of.

    #1003477

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    In fact, even Divrei Sofrim are much deeper than that. Shlomo Hamelech gave over a thousand reasons for each one. The difference is though, that when it comes to a Derabanan we do deal with the reason given to apply a Heter to a certain circumstance or to decide if we must reinstate a forgotten Gezeira.

    #1003478

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    3 wives is the ideal, because it now takes 3 incomes to get by.

    #1003479

    oyyoyyoy
    Participant

    first bais haleivi on ki sisa speaks about giving/understanding reasons to mitzvos at length. Bkitzur, like what DY is saying- first comes the mitzva, chok vloy yaavor. After you understand that nothing will change based on any reason you give, only then can you start getting into taamie hamitzvos . vayin sham.

    #1003480

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    What are the detriments?

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