March 26, 2012 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #1059859soliekMember
I was obviously being general…March 26, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1059860avhabenParticipant
Can someone please explain the reason why a girl might be struggling to dress tznius?March 27, 2012 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1059861
I don’t know. All frum BY schools teach that the knees have to be covered. (some say 4″ some say a little less…) But looking around you see scores of High School girls looking perfectly aidel until you see the skirt. Nowadays its only covered to mid knee. If you look at the back you can usually see on top of the knee. Real Shame.
How is this accepted?March 27, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1059862
When looking to buy a skirt or any article of clothing really, just remember “ATTRACTIVE NOT ATTRACTING”! A skirt in truth could be a foot below the knee and not be tznius because of the color or how it fits! Just remember you should look presentable, you are representing Hashem, dont dress to call attention!March 27, 2012 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1059863farrocksMember
big deal: It isn’t. At least it shouldn’t be. And you’re talking when they’re standing. G-d forbid should they sit down.March 27, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1059864
@avhaben She might see her friends doing it and in all honesty feels that if they do then she can. I am not defending it but think of a teenage girl, and how hard it is to fit in, when she sees others doing something (ex. short skirts) then she cant see the wrong! Or in simple honesty she doesnt feel that it will make a diffrence! I have talked to some teen girls and tey simply ask” why and how would a man be attracive to my dried elbow/knee? What looks nice about them?”March 27, 2012 2:27 am at 2:27 am #1059865twinkleSTARMember
Big deal and Yiddeshemeidle613, we all know it exists.
Avhaben wants 2 know:Can someone please explain the reason why a girl might be struggling to dress tznius?
There could be a million and one reasons why…just know that that ‘girl’ u r refering 2 isn’t the only 1!
It could be attributed to Social Pressure, family or school upbringing etc…
This issue is the same as mobile phones on shabbos.
By them not dressing accordingly, it shows that girls dont understand the beauty of being Tznius. They r told ‘to dress tznius’ without being given the internal meaning, and they dont feel it inside therefore, they dont see the major need to have 2 dress tznius, and they do the bare minimum.
I am not giving this to give as an excuse, because its not…March 27, 2012 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1059866
avhaben: could you explain why you don’t learn torah every second of spare time you have?March 27, 2012 2:47 am at 2:47 am #1059867avhabenParticipant
Because I need to relax. Are you saying they need to wear a too short skirt?March 27, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #1059868
You have an excuse for not being mekayaim the mitzvah of vehigasah bo yomum valeila. And girls have excuses for needing to wear too short skirts? Don’t you see what I’m trying to tell you?
The same way the yetzer harah gets men away from learning torah (their main mitzvah): Too tired, stressed out, other things to take care of…
The same yetzer harah will find and excuse for girls to be oiver on their main mitzva = tznius: don’t tell me what to do, looks better, no one will notice, men shouldn’t look at me…March 27, 2012 4:20 am at 4:20 am #1059869
Twinklestar I m sorry if you feel i didnt awnser the qustion! But i thought i did when i talked about peer pressure … I mean think about some of these girls unfortuntaly look at one another expecting to find their awnsers! When in reality they should have a role model, older girl… Its all really quit sad,March 27, 2012 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #1059871mytakeMember
“Can someone please explain the reason why a girl might be struggling to dress tznius?”
I cannot speak for other women, but personally here’s why I struggle:
#1-I am grateful for the side benefits that Tznius affords every Jewish woman aside from the schar mitzvah. Really. But the fact is that appreciating Tznius doesn’t mean that I appreciate the standards that halacha demands of me.
It takes a lot of effort and honest self evaluation to get to a point where you truly appreciate those standards. Until then, you remind yourself every day that your job is to make Hashem proud even when you don’t (yet) appreciate them. And you tell yourself that YOUR standards shouldn’t matter, only Hashem’s do. Even if many people dress worse than you.
#2-I don’t dress to attract attention of others. I don’t dress to impress friends. But I am still a girl who will stop and stare at the pretty flat in the display window. I will critque perfumes with my friends for fun and Sephora is my personal disneyland. And yes, I can see a pretty blue dress and know it’s too short & tight for me, but it is still a pretty blue dress.
I understand that to the opposite gender this dress will turn me into more of a physical object than I’d like to be. But it’s still pretty! The same thing goes for the skirts that hit mid-knee. It’s as wrong as anything, but you’re not gonna get me to say that the look isn’t simply adorable (on the right person…).
So even when you’re willing to follow the halachos perfectly, it’s hard every time you see a cute short skirt or much-too-tight-but-so-so-pretty dress. It’ll never make me less of a fashion enthusiast.
I hope that one day I will be strong enough to overcome those challenges despite the difficulty. Until then, I struggle.March 27, 2012 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1059872
“If you look at the back”.
Unless you are her mother, father, teacher, rebbetzin. Dont.March 27, 2012 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1059873klugeryidParticipant
mytake, well said, but why does the community patronize the shops that sell this stuff. we dont buy from non kosher butcher stores, why buy from non kosher dress storesMarch 27, 2012 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1059874mytakeMember
“The community” includes those who don’t bother themselves with worrying about Tznius, those who struggle but sometimes fall, and those who takeh don’t patronize those shops.March 27, 2012 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1059876
Stores sell what people want to buy.March 27, 2012 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #1059877uneeqMember
bigdeal: You are yoitze “vehagisa bo yomam velayla” by saying krias shema morning and night.March 27, 2012 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1059878antikfiraParticipant
I believe the issue with Tznius amongst today’s youth and adult alike, stems from a more fundamental issue, that people have lost the appreciation as to the point of Tznius, and have lost sight of why living B’Derech Hashem is so important.
Educators and parents nowadays explain away Tznius with reasons such as so as not to be too attractive to the men, or not to be too haughty or involved in your image. Although these are valid points, but they can easily be disregarded legitimately with arguments and perhaps rationalizations.
The Mechanchim should spend time focusing on and stressing the power of the female body and its preciousness, and the power it gives a woman if she wields its power and keeps it special and refined. In the same way a person does not flaunt his precious diamonds in the street, or invite random people off the street into their home, and certainly not the bedrooms, and certainly not the master bathroom, because all of these things would diminish the inherent personal value of the object owned.. The home or the diamond only costs a set monetary price, but the female body is priceless and infinitely more powerful than money. If a woman realizes this deeply and recognizes the power she has by keeping her most valuable possession to herself, there is no doubt that she will instinctively dress in a more refined, Tzniusdik fashion, the degree of which will only increase as time goes on, and the struggle will only become smaller.March 27, 2012 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1059879twinkleSTARMember
Yiddeshe Maidel613, i was refering 2 ur earlier post…March 27, 2012 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1059880
@twinklestar oh…actually the first post was a general post to the actual forum, not as a anwser ! enjoy cleaning for Peseach:)April 9, 2012 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1059882
anikfra – I totally agree with you! there is way to much muser schmoozeing on the gender view then there are for the actual kedusha of the body!!!!April 10, 2012 4:40 am at 4:40 am #1059883giggle girlParticipant
Just remember: when you are testing your skirt when you are sitting, don’t pull it down a lot before you sit because that’s just not honest. Just sit down as you always do. That makes sure it’s completely tzniusdik – yes, even if it’s 3.5 inches below the knee. It might be just fine. I once had a skirt that was 2 inches below the knee but it was still tzniusdik (until I grew of course ;)).April 10, 2012 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1059884nfgo3Member
As presented by the OP, this question is purely a question for a tailor, not question of halacha.
Are any of the respondents tailors?April 10, 2012 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1059885shmoelMember
Halacha defines what has to be covered.April 10, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1059886popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Are any of the respondents tailors?
popa! popa! I wanna be!April 19, 2012 1:36 am at 1:36 am #1059887
Honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a skirt that if it literally doesn’t almost reach the ankles, that was long enough to cover the knees and above when a girl is getting out of (or into) a car. Anything shorter than reaching to the borders of the ankles will expose above the knees when getting out or into a car.April 19, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #1059888Sam2Participant
Sushe: Why are you checking these things? Oh, and I just asked two girls. They disagree with your claim on that M’tzius.
(Maybe we can be Dan you L’chaf Zechus that you did extensive research on this with your daughters so that you can know what the proper Halachah should be?)April 19, 2012 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1059889CsarMember
Perhaps sushe tested it herself. In any event, it is relevant to know whether its a problem so it should be long enough.April 19, 2012 3:24 am at 3:24 am #1059890Sam2Participant
You’re right. It’s entirely possible that sushe is a girl (though I think he’s said he’s a guy before). If sushe is a girl, then I apologize.April 19, 2012 11:26 am at 11:26 am #1059892
I said almost to the ankles. There’s almost simply no way a skirt that is any less than 4 inches below the knee will not expose above the knee when getting out of (or into) a car. If it is less than 4″ below, it will rise when getting in/out a car, exposing above the knee.April 19, 2012 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1059893OneOfManyParticipant
sushe: There’s a trick that frum girls have for getting out of cars that you apparently aren’t aware of. Ask any girl you know – they can show you.
…are you really a girl? Because I can’t believe you wouldn’t know this…April 19, 2012 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #1059894
Umm, yeah, I know the “trick”. Except, as any girl knows, it fails more times than it works. Either due to omission or commission. Often due to forgetting to employ the “trick”. Other times due to the “trick” suffering a technical failure.
Which means only a skirt that is long enough to not leave exposed the upper knees when entering or exiting a vehicle, without any “tricks”, is tznius.April 19, 2012 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1059895OneOfManyParticipant
I really have no interest in arguing with you about this, and you clearly have some notions formed that you’re sticking to. I’m not belittling your position – it’s an admirable hiddur. But I think you’re wrong in labeling everyone who doesn’t follow your hanhaga as unilaterally untzniusdig, and foolish in trying to back up your assertion with trivial technical assumptions. That’s all I have to say.April 19, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #1059896
It is not a hiddur. It is strict halacha. A girls upper knee *must always* be covered. Always includes when entering or exiting a motor vehicle, a very common occurance. Someone whose skirt fails to *always* keep above her knee covered when getting in and out of a car (a public area/on the street), is clearly breaching halacha and commiting an aveira.April 20, 2012 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1059897
“must always”? without spelling it out, you can also use your imagination to come up with numerous scenarios where always, does not apply.April 20, 2012 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1059898
Yes, must always. As in always always. We are talking about in the public arena. As in entering or exiting a vehicle on the street. No exceptions. Halacha clearly requires the upper leg to *always* be covered in public. We are not discussing in the privacy of ones home.February 4, 2015 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1059899A Certain PersonParticipant
Congratulations, sushee; you have officially joined the Legion of the Insane.February 9, 2015 5:11 am at 5:11 am #1059900gildaParticipant
I find that if the skirt has stretch in the fabric it’s more flexible and covers the knee when sitting. Of course we have to be careful it shouldn’t be too fittedFebruary 11, 2015 5:02 am at 5:02 am #1059901ExcellenceParticipant
How much below the knee?
It should be way past the knee. Read the Chofetz Chaim’s Geder Olam. Knee length is not acceptable to me. I’m particular because I know what the mystical texts have to say on modesty… Blessed are those men who are married to a wife who’s skirt is to the ankles. Know they have received a great gift! Treat her as the diamond she is!February 11, 2015 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1059902AZOI.ISParticipant
I havent read through the whole thread, but Im wondering where the undebatable source is in the Torah, for covering knees, collarbone and elbows?February 12, 2015 3:08 am at 3:08 am #1059903JosephParticipant
Same source that says to cover the belly.February 12, 2015 3:40 am at 3:40 am #1059905
Translation: You will not find a verse in Tanach that says so,
but neither will you find one for most of the body.
The halachos of tznius are derived from the halachos of not saying
d’varim shebikdusha (brachos, tefilla, Torah) in the presence
of indecent exposure, and they include those parts of the body.February 12, 2015 5:40 am at 5:40 am #1059906AZOI.ISParticipant
” in the presence of indecent exposure, and they include those parts of the body.”
1- So who set the inches guidelines?
2- Why is measuring inches of far greater importance to some, than honesty and straightforwardness, especially in financial matters? Hamaivin Yavin.February 12, 2015 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #1059907☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Does an honest person get a free pass for pritzus?February 12, 2015 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #1059908oomisParticipant
The simple answer is that both pritzus AND dishonesty are a no no, equally important.February 12, 2015 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1059909☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Precisely.February 13, 2015 12:13 am at 12:13 am #1059910
So who set the inches guidelines?
Important contemporary poskim, in consultation with experts, have determined that 4i below the knee is the minimum length necessary for a garment to keep the knee covered in any position, with some garments requiring greater length. ?? ?????.February 13, 2015 12:42 am at 12:42 am #1059911frumnotyeshivishParticipant
“Important contemporary poskim” in consultation with “experts” came to a vague factual conclusion? Ok. Imho everyone is free to come to their own factual conclusions about their own legs. Now where’s the halacha that says that “covered in any position” is the appropriate measure?February 13, 2015 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1059912
Now where’s the halacha that says that “covered in any position” is the appropriate measure?
IYHO, are the poskim allowed to decide what is
an appropriate measure in matters of tznius?February 13, 2015 1:56 am at 1:56 am #1059913JosephParticipant
“Now where’s the halacha that says that “covered in any position” is the appropriate measure?”
Very strange question. That’s like asking “Now where’s the halacha that says that “all ingredients are kosher” is the appropriate determination of kashrus?” For something to be kosher, all the ingredients must be kosher. You can’t say, well, 11 out of the 12 ingredients are kosher so we’ll certify the product as kosher.
If something has to be covered, obviously it must be covered at all times. Why would there be an exception for when its a hot day or a windy day or walking up a staircase or sitting down? If it can be uncovered when sitting down why must it be covered when standing or walking? If something has to be covered, obviously it means always covered, not covered 85% of the time.
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