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Careful, Cherrybim. When I made a similar observation to yours (with which I wholly concur), I was given an unwarranted mussar shmuz from someone who strongly disagrees, and believes that such opinions indicate antagonism to Torah study.
“apushatayid, what I meant was that learning boys tend to be more yeshivish than working boys…so if a girl is yeshivish but doesn’t have money… “
With all due respect, I believe you exaggerate. I have known very MANY so-called “working boys,” who are as yeshivish as any F/T kollel guy I have ever met. The main difference is that they have the self-respect and satisfaction that comes from paying their own way in life, and do not feel ot imply that support is owed to them. They appreciate any help that is given to them when necessary, but make a point of not expecting that help. I will stack their learning and frumkeit up against any F/T yeshivah bochur’s any day.
oomis- i wont give you my opinion because, lets be honest, it wont change yours, nor do you plan on changing it. youre ideas kneged kollel are clearly set in stone, which is fine, youre entitled. but lets be honest, most guys that go to work are not nearly as yeshivish as yungerleit in kollel. i didnt say not as frum- they could be on par with yeshivileit in that regard, but as yeshivish? No way. and i really dont get you. if a girl wants to marry a working boy, fine. if she wants to marry a parapalegic, im sure youd be able to write an essay on how beautiful it is, and the schar shes getting, and what a deep person she must be. But to think of a girl who wants her husband to learn? that must be motivated by ulterior motives, and there cant be a tzad to be matzdik her. terrible, just terrible.
What we really need now:
1) 1 year koilel – almost universal with focus on practical halacha. Meant as preparation for family and career life al pi Torah. Parents should never feel obligated to provide support past this point.
2) 5 year koilel – by exam only, preparation for serious rabbonus positions. Supported mainly by community, although one can guess that a bochur who is on this path may be top marriage material for a privileged family that wants to and can support a talmid chochom.
3) 10+ year koilel – very tough qualifications for our future poiskim. Perhaps 10-30 yungerleit throughout the WORLD should qualify for this each year. Ditto for 5 year re support.
Otherwise, there is too much of a temptation to wind up in:
4) Federal Koilel – to teach a lesson to those who take shortcuts and break laws while putting on a frum facade. Some yingerleit in this koilel ended up there because of financial pressure to live well and support children for long periods of time.
It is downright offensive and outrageous how “working boys” are seen as lower than “learning boys”. This needs to CHANGE! It is a mitzvah and zechus to work to provide for your family. The current economic model is unsustainable beyond the current generation. What will the grandchildren do? Be supported by parents who themselves are supported by their parents?
Stop looking down on people who work. End of. Give credit to masmidim (even Ben gurion recognized the concept) but don’t assume every person is suitable for kollel.
A rosh yeshiva was passing one of the demonstrations in Yerushalayim and saw a former talmid “How’s it going” he asked
“TO be honest Rebbi I’m not in full-time learning anymore, it didn’t work out for me. But don’t worry I’m not working ch”v”
I guess money and security have always been sought for sons and daughters, but today to find young men from day one saying they need support from a future wife or her family seems very odd to me.
Why get worked up ? I guess I am an old Jewish romantic, if such a thing is permitted in frum circles. I hope and pray for all my children that the person they step under the chuppah with is someone they look at with love and respect, for middos, love of Torah, humour, chemistry etc. I would never let my kids, boys or girls discount someone from a poor home, because that girl or boy without money may be rich in Torah true qualities and make my child happy.
Here’s the New Shekel sign, for future reference it can be copied and pasted.
?
And if Obama is re-elected, here is the new dollar sign: (0)
Oomis, I made up in the Mechila thread. I thought I made myself clear.
Let me try again. Besides of what Toi shlit”a wrote, (read it twice, at least see someone else’s opinion), let me try to stress one point here.
There’s an Ohr HaChayim somewhere I believe that speaks about someone denigrating Torah, or Torah study. Not that good. However minute, it still is belittling HaShem’s Torah. Now hear this – we too face reality, (someone here’s providing..), not everything should be aired freely. Gemarah, too, writes about earning a livelihood. I believe it is dealt with a length. (Gemarah techies can maybe back me up on this.) A couple’s commitment, choice of lifestyle etc. is up to them. They and we all know reality. It’s your blanket statements that are not ‘Torah-dig’, they certainly don’t belong on a ‘Yeshiva World’.
WHY LOOK DOWN ON LEARNING BOYS?? Oh, because you think they’re not productive! They lack ‘self-respect and satisfaction…’ Well then, I guess that’s a part of ??? ???? ??? ????.
In case anyone missed my previous post:
Most controversial opinion here – there’s nothing wrong with learning HaShem’s Torah!!
In my humble opinion it’s EVERY Jewish man’s privilege and obligation. For all men. Not only great promising minds and personalities. Not just to develop to become a Rabbi or Rosh HaYeshiva. To learn HaShem’s Holy Torah as HE INTENDED IT TO BE LEARNED.
How can one not versed in all of Torah DARE GIVE AN OPINION?!? One who doesn’t fully comprehend the value of Torah, its holiness. Would a man wander into the ladies’ domain giving his opinion about female issues right and left?!? Would one give a precious stone to a butcher for appraisal?
One must tread EXTREMELY CAREFULLY regarding this topic. Overstepping borders on Apikorsus – ??? ???? ??? ????. Yes, even here on an open (anonymous) forum. A chilul HaShem generated by some careless remark, is not regarded lightly upstairs. If we were zoche to a generation that has some sort of system, Torah & Kollel families where Torah rules supreme and the primary focus is on the Ruchnius, who is going to be to Letz, the Amalek, to laugh it off?!?
aww shucks zees, my first shlita lol.
“not everything should be aired freely”
You are correct on this count.
Not every obligation in marriage is written in the Kesubah.
But the husband’s obligation to support the wife is.
Frum Jewish women have every right to insist that frum Jewish boys are taught about this obligation, and that the education system produce men able to support families.
Kollel support is not for the avreich, it’s for Torah. It doesn’t come from the in-laws, it comes from what Hashem deposited with them for this purpose. Avreichim learn so the world will exist. Boys shouldn’t have to “demand” support. If they learn, Hashem entitles them to it. If the in laws have a problem with this, it’s because they think “their” money is theirs or spent it on wrong things. Avreichim are our path to geula and we cannot afford to lose any of them to people who caught the disease of Western materialism.
Let’s try again, Josh. I assume you didn’t read my previous posts.
Every frum woman has a right to choose a husband who will go out to work. This may come as a shock to you & every else on your band wagon – they also have a right to choose a husband who will learn in kollel! Like I wrote before (over & over), it’s the couple’s choice. Not mine. Not even your’s. It’s their lifestyle & destiny they’re forging, they don’t necessarily have to follow your’s.
In my humble opinion, there’s nothing wrong with the wife deciding she wants more from life, a ‘derhoibene’, uplifting, accomplished, spiritual lifestyle, a Torah-dig home, a holy mikdash me’at, where Torah & mitzvohs rule. Where she knows he’s supporting fully with ruchnius and she’ll fill in the rest. No, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that arrangement.
No one I can see here is being disrespectful to the need and duty to study Torah.
What bothers me is the idea of someone supposedly imbued with the spirt of Torah and yiddishkeit who yet does not realise it is not actually very nice ( I am being polite) to look for a bride to support you. Is marriage a contract of convenience or a special holy relationship? Do not parents of daughters feel uncomfortable about a man seeking their daughter’s hand only once the financial details have been settled, it bothers me as I find it vulgar for young men to be taught to look for girls with money, that is the bottom line.
I thought learning Torah would give a young man values and dignity, not create someone seeking a partner for her support. As for young women happily giving support, of course once married one does all one can for Torah and the family, but who wants to be actually chosen for their capability to pay up?. Do people not realise how this devalues marriage and relationship, no doubt contributing to divorce and family break up.
Learning Torah is a gift and belongs indeed to all, no one is daring to contradict that, just saying working can be part of a Torah life too. Yissachar and Zevulun is a noble contract used to share wealth and learning, the current attitude being promoted leads to young women treated like meal tickets, and teaches young men a most unsavoury lesson
Hey rubberbands looks like your point of the thread got lost on the way by some well meaning people who thought they’d educate you and tell you not to bother because boys shouldnt be getting supported 🙂
I still don’t understand or get the assertion that working boys are less yeshivish that learning boys because this person has not defined “yeshivish”.
At the end of the day, is there such a thing as lifetime kollel unless someone becomes a rosh kollel himself? At some point, doesn’t everyone do some type of work, usually in rabbonus, chinuch or other klei koidesh fields?
I still don’t understand or get the assertion that working boys are less yeshivish that learning boys because this person has not defined “yeshivish”.
I think we can generalize and say that learning boys are more likely to identify with American chareidi judaism than working boys. So if that is what she is looking for, she may need to look for a learning boy.
“Avreichim learn so the world will exist.”
Paleeze. It is a mitzva for all to learn Torah and also, the world exists because we all learn Torah; in best case scenarios: from 5AM and the rest of the day and night for the working person, and 9AM through mincha and then second seder for the non-worker.
everyone defines yeshivish as something else…a typical Lakewood guy is yeshivish.
typical lakewood is guy is what I call yeshivish..I should say
At the end of the day, is there such a thing as lifetime kollel unless someone becomes a rosh kollel himself? At some point, doesn’t everyone do some type of work, usually in rabbonus, chinuch or other klei koidesh fields?
No. I am aware of a number of grandfathers who are still in Kollel full time.
No. I am aware of a number of grandfathers who are still in Kollel full time.
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Interesting. They are not retirees or early retirees from the working world?
Interesting. They are not retirees or early retirees from the working world?
Nope
Well, there is someone, nebach a formerly frum Yid, who landed over seven centuries in FEDERAL koilel. He will be a great-to-the-30th-power grandfather on his release date!
Seriously, though, how common is lifelong kollel with no outside income or responsibilities whatsoever?
Seriously, though, how common is lifelong kollel with no outside income or responsibilities whatsoever?
I suggest someone go into Lakewood and take a poll. Then they can go to Otisville and take a poll. Perhaps the Creedmoor Chassidus can sponsor?
LOL you rarely get a lifetime appointment to Federal Kollel.
Do they actually have a minyan everyday of frum jews in Otisville or is it just an urban legend that goes around?
“No. I am aware of a number of grandfathers who are still in Kollel full time”
***
1. Their in-laws still support them?
2. Who support their sons-in-law?
There are probably two or more minyanim in Otisville. It is Federal Kollel, a prison designed specially for the needs of frum white collar criminals. How low have we fallen?
There is another Federal Kollel in Fort Dix, New Jersey.
Why do you all think the wives shouldn’t/can’t work here? I’ve been working from home for an American (Frum) company. It’s not easy to do, granted. it was set up for women who are committed to helping out financially. Many young wives have joined the company and felt it rewarding to actually contribute to their husband’s learning. There are options… Women can babysit, tutor, give a chug. They don’t have to have open hands begging for their parents to pay up.
1. Their in-laws still support them?
Actually parents and Brothers in law.
2. Who support their sons-in-law?
The United States Government.
I was thinking the same thing as cv. Who supports the grandfathers and the sons-in-law of the grandfathers? I can’t see how this system can possibly be supported any longer than it has been so far unless the wife works like a dog.
Speaking of which, a joke I heard:When Adam and Chava were expelled from Gan Eden, they were each given a curse: Chava would have the pain of childbirth and Adam would have to work for his living. This worked for 5500 years and they then invented the epidural. Now that it’s not as painful, they gave the curse of working to the women to make up for it.
Ladies, do not beat me up for this. I don’t like it any more than you do. I personally don’t think that it should be the full responsibility of the wife to support the family and take care of the kids. At this point, I don’t know yet whether I want to marry a learning or working boy but my parents are not supporting and I don’t want them to. They did so much for me so far— why should I expect so much as a matter of course? Nobody supported them when they got married. They worked. Both of them.
“it bothers me as I find it vulgar for young men to be taught to look for girls with money, that is the bottom line.”
What would you suggest the boys that really want to learn long term do? If they go out with a girl and find out after they like her and she likes him that she wants him to learn and he wants to learn but there is no feasible way for it to happen they have to make a much harder decision which if they leave Yeshiva to stay with this girl will cause resentment at the start of the marriage as he goes out into the work world.
IMO it is a basic hishtadlus to at least make sure she has a plan for herself to be working if she wants to marry a learner.
In regards to the comment about the system not being sustainable in the long term (next generation) -I would suggest 1) First and Foremost you need to place your trust in Hashem. A person needs to do what they need to do now to be the best they can be. Jews have been around for thousands of years and will continue to exist. The best thing a person can do is to sit and learn and give pleasure to his creator. If the time comes when a person needs to go out and work, many of these Yeshiva Bochurs will go out and work, but to be concerned for the next generation in a supposedly unsustainable cycle appears to be a bit of a lack in the belief of Hashem to sustain all mankind.
There is one way (that I can see) that this cycle is sustainable for another generation however I am not going to state it here for the only reason of not giving people the impression that it is the only way. Yehoshuas Hashem Keheref Ayin. – The salvation of Hashem comes in the blink of an eye. Beezras Hashem everyone will do what their Creator Above wants of them and Mashiach will come before any of this becomes an issue.
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