February 27, 2014 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1006309
Redleg – if you think learning is all about reading comprehension…
1)From what I see, working men are not more available for their wives. If anything, they have much less flexible schedules. And if a working guy puts in some time learning, they’re really unavailable.
2)Taking care of kids, like all wives. So you mean that you also work – yes, we’re discussing being the enabler.
3)True, but don’t minimize men’s desires for gashmiyus either!
Of course learning is tov bazeh uba’buh. But it takes tremendous discipline as well, and often giving up on other things, so its not exactly like someone here wants schar for putting their feet up and enjoying themselves.
For what it’s worth, I agree that women have been conditioned to hear Torah a certain way.
GAW – far as I know, Yisocher and Zevulen split schar. Obviously one will get more schar for more effort – we we’re discussing the inherent part of the learner vs. the enabler.
I don’t know which meforshim you’re referring to, but learning Metzudos, Redak and Malbim is in no way similar to learning Gemara.February 27, 2014 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1006311
I don’t know which meforshim you’re referring to, but learning Metzudos, Redak and Malbim is in no way similar to learning Gemara.
Bekiyus or Beiyun? Beiyun I agree, but Bekiyus you would be hard-pressed to say its much different.
Obviously one will get more schar for more effort – we we’re discussing the inherent part of the learner vs. the enabler.
I can agree with this. HKBH will decide who puts in more effort.February 27, 2014 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1006312RedlegParticipant
Logician, Don’t you think that reading comprehension is important to learning? In my experience it does not seem to require more than average intelligence (average for Ashkenazi Jews) to be successful in learning. What is required most is hasmoda and desire. Most of what is called “learning” is really nothing more than rote memory.
That is not to say that there aren’t true illuyim in the Beis Medrash but illuyis isn’t required for greatness in Torah. Many of our gedolim, past and present were not illuyim. They attained gadlus by dint of hard work and dedication.
It has already been long established that, when the tenor of the times requires it, women may be taught Torah (can you say “Beis Yaakov”?). As to the latter, why would a woman’s learning be less valuable or less worthy than her listening to shofar or benching esrog as mentioned previously. Here’s a thought. Since learning Torah is not a mitzvah shehazman grama, why wouldn’t a woman be just as mechuyiv in it as a man?February 27, 2014 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1006314
“HKBH will decide who puts in more effort.”
which is why the answer to “how much is it worth” is, only hashem can assign a value. each person and his or her circumstances are different.February 27, 2014 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1006315
“HKBH will decide who puts in more effort.”
which is why the answer to “how much is it worth” is, only hashem can assign a value. each person and his or her circumstances are different.
Unless the answer is “nothing”. If we can agree the answer is not “nothing”, then we have accomplished one of my main goals in this thread.February 27, 2014 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1006316
Most of what is called “learning” is really nothing more than rote memory.
That is a gross misstatement. Did you ever hear the word “lomdus”?
Since learning Torah is not a mitzvah shehazman grama, why wouldn’t a woman be just as mechuyiv in it as a man?
You should look up the sugya in Kiddushin. The fact that women are p’turos from MAS”G is actually derived from Talmud Torah.February 27, 2014 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1006318
DY: You got to it first. Yasher Koach.February 27, 2014 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1006319
Most of what is called “learning” is really nothing more than rote memory.
Nothing like declaring an opinion, and then in the same paragraph announcing that you have no idea what you’re talking about.February 27, 2014 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1006320
No, most of learning is not rote memory. While we are absorbing information, the main focus is on understanding it properly. Reading comp. is certainly part of it, but the main thing is the logical analysis involved. Readers here may disagree with me, but that’s a huge conversation of its own, involving a misunderstanding of the idea of limud bekius.
Here’s a thought. Since learning Torah is not a mitzvah shehazman grama, why wouldn’t a woman be just as mechuyiv in it as a man?
Here’s a thought. Go learn, and then start a discussion in learning.February 27, 2014 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1006321RedlegParticipant
Gentlemen, I stand by may statement that most of “learning” is rote memory.
DY, Lomus is certainly a a part of learning and a reasonably rigorous (but not overly so) intellectual exercise, but it’s hard to do Brisker synthesis without memorizing the shitos that you’re synthesizing. As far as MAS”G. I did review the sugya. You’re right, but I thought I’d just throw the idea out there.
PBA, I’m not sure what you’re talking about. My opinion is based on my experiences in the Beis Medrash. Perhaps your experience was different and that forms your opinion. I have opinions and you have opinions. You know what they say about opinions.
My basic point is that there is no physical or mental reason that a woman could not attain the same levels of Torah scholarship as any man. The issue is solely whether and to what extent a woman may learn or be taught Torah and what, if any, schar she receives for doing so.February 27, 2014 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1006322
“Unless the answer is “nothing”.”
On what basis can we agree it is nothing? thats hashems job, not mine or yours or any of the erudite scholars who populate the coffee room.February 27, 2014 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1006323
It is not so improper to say that most of learning is memorization. Not memorizing words that you don’t understand, but if you can memorize the Shakil V’tarya of a lot of Blatt Gemara (or memorize whole sections of Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, etc.) you end up being appreciated a lot more than the guy who can make Chakiras like R’ Chaim. In Yeshivos we enjoy and respect the mental backflips that we can do with Rishonim, but at the end of the day the Pashtan who knows Shas often receives just as, if not more, respect than the Lamdan.February 27, 2014 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1006324
It is not so improper to say that most of learning is memorization. Not memorizing words that you don’t understand, but if you can memorize the Shakil V’tarya of a lot of Blatt Gemara (or memorize whole sections of Rambam, Shulchan Aruch, etc.) you end up being appreciated a lot more than the guy who can make Chakiras like R’ Chaim. In Yeshivos we enjoy and respect the mental backflips that we can do with Rishonim, but at the end of the day the Pashtan who knows Shas often receives just as, if not more, respect than the Lamdan.
Are we discussing the mitzva of talmud torah, or how to get respect on the internet and in shul?February 27, 2014 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1006325
apushatayid – If it is a Mitzvah for women (even if they are Eino Metzuva V’Oseh), then by definition learning can not be “nothing” (as otherwise it would violate Schar V’Onesh). Therefore, I was trying to gather sources or come to a consensus.
Paskening the Halacha whether it is a Mitzva or not IS within our bounds of Lo Bashomayim He.February 27, 2014 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #1006326
apushatayid – If it is a Mitzvah for women (even if they are Eino Metzuva V’Oseh), then by definition learning can not be “nothing” (as otherwise it would violate Schar V’Onesh).
Not necessarily. The Rambam seems to disapprove of women learning in most situations. It is easily possible that if Hashem does not want you to do a mitzva and you do it anyway, that there is no schar.February 27, 2014 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1006327
PBA: Both, maybe. People have had trouble convincing me that the Ikkar Talmud Torah is throwing everything ever in existence into Chakiros.February 27, 2014 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1006328
PBA: Both, maybe. People have had trouble convincing me that the Ikkar Talmud Torah is throwing everything ever in existence into Chakiros.
But they have had success convincing you that it is rote memorization??February 27, 2014 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #1006329bais yakov maidelParticipant
“if I have a stimulating Torah thought, my wife will often be the wrong person for me to turn to for sharing”
That’s ok. When my husband has a torah chiddush I’m the first person he turns to. And vice versa as well. You can think it’s odd. And my husband has some impressive credentials i will not list here.
As per the ramabam, he was portraying a sitation that existed in his days; duh…most women were not capable of learning for whatever reasons, such as, lack of education for women in general, tremendous amount of time needed to be spent on homemaking (not necessarily child-rearing, as in those times raising children was not considered a full-time endeavor)
But today things are DIFFERENT. I’d say that the amount of women who are capable of learning is not a minority anymore.
The rambam’s words are not absolute. Listen to his tone… he is saying that we don’t teach women BECAUSE their minds are not up it. NOT because it’s some absolute principle that needs to be adhered to.
By career, I mean a creative endeaor OTHER than the home and raising children. For me to be pre-occupied with running a home, and my husband agrees, is a waste of time. And by the way, I do a fantastic job at it. We are hoping, when the family gets larger, to have full-time help that takes care of as much of the household tasks as possible, so that I have more time to focus on my career which we think is more important than washing dishes. For me, running a home is like what cleaning a room is for a teenager. It needs to be done so you have the peace of mind that you are in a clean, organized environment. Period. There is nothing so holy about it. I am not the cohen gadol in the beis hamikdoes. And in no way is it something to be glorified as an occupation.
As per raising children, that’s different than household chores. But still, raising children is something we do as part of being wholesome human beings. But it’s an equal endeavor between a man and woman. If I end up spending more time with the children for whatever reasons, its for practical reasons that I can do something better. Not because in theory we believe that women should be involved in child-rearing the majority of the time.
People may find themselves being a full-time homemaker and parent at points in their life, but I don’t see that as an ideal to strive for.February 27, 2014 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #1006330
PBA: There is a Chiyuv to know Kol HaTorah Kula by heart. Rote memorization sounds better for that than most Lomdus.February 27, 2014 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1006331littleeemaParticipant
How much is a woman’s Torah worth? Whatever the seminary charges!!!February 27, 2014 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1006332
“Paskening the Halacha whether it is a Mitzva or not IS within our bounds of Lo Bashomayim He.”
So, why dont we see what the shulchan aruch has to say about this. Why not start in siman reish mem vav (yoreh deah)sif vav. Continue with the rma and the nosei keilim.
The mechaber does say that even tough she has no mitzvah of talmud torah, she does earn schar for learning. Since hashem is the one who awards the schar, I think it is best left up to him to determine the value of the learning and the schar given.February 27, 2014 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #1006333
Not necessarily. The Rambam seems to disapprove of women learning in most situations. It is easily possible that if Hashem does not want you to do a mitzva and you do it anyway, that there is no schar.
“Disapprove” != Hashem not wanting you to do it. I agree in cases where there is a Gezairah (such as Lulav on Shabbos) that you should ask the question, but not here.
Contrast the Halacha by an Isha to that by an Eved, where in YD 267:71 it says that it is ASSUR to teach an Eved Torah. There I would say that you have room to argue that there is no Schar.
I also challenge you to be Mechalek between the cases.February 27, 2014 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1006334
PBA: There is a Chiyuv to know Kol HaTorah Kula by heart. Rote memorization sounds better for that than most Lomdus.
I understand that chiyuv as being able to answer substantively–not to respond to: “can you please tell me the words of mishna gimmel in perek vov of shabbos”?
I don’t think there is any value in rote memorization at all, and it is worse than watching movies, since it is bittul torah without even getting any relaxation out of it.February 27, 2014 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1006335besalelParticipant
the pilpul learning done nowadays in most yeshivas (at least in america) is very entertaining but not how learning was historically done. all those mnemonics you see all over shas are there because the whole point of learning was to remember it – not necessarily dissect it and forget it like is done today.February 27, 2014 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1006336Ben LeviParticipant
You still did not explain to me what is the intrinsic value in a “career”?February 27, 2014 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #1006337besalelParticipant
Ben Levi: cant the intrinsic value simply be that it is something that gives a person great joy on life? I imagine that first and foremost the Torah’s intention is to make us live a happy life. a person who would enjoy living if she practiced a certain career would see great intrinsic value in a career.
As for those who have argued (and believe it or not I have seen the argument) that it is not very important for the Torah whether or not the person is happy, I suggest you begin by reading Devarim and see all promises made to those who keep the Torah. It is not “you will get to heaven.” Not once is that even mentioned. Sometimes common sense needs to prevail. Of course the Torah wants you first and foremost to be happy.
Of course the Torah prescribes to you what you need to do in order to live a happy life but “be a housewife and not a [dentist/accountant/brick layer]” is not among the Torah prescriptions. The Torah wants you to live a happy/Torah life as a [housewife/dentist/accountant/brick layer] and in many ways finding out what makes you happy in life is the first step in keeping a Torah life.February 27, 2014 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1006338Ben LeviParticipant
I am sure you have may think that you are of the opinion that the “intent” of the Torah was for us to be happy in life.
However since that is not the understanding of the Pillars of JEwish though (Please see the Mesilas Yeshorim in the Introduction as well as Chovos Halevovos Sha’ar Avodas Elokim) you are simply wrong.
Unless you feel qualified enough to argue with them regarding the purpose of life.February 27, 2014 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1006339
the pilpul learning done nowadays in most yeshivas (at least in america) is very entertaining but not how learning was historically done. all those mnemonics you see all over shas are there because the whole point of learning was to remember it – not necessarily dissect it and forget it like is done today.
On the other hand, all the pilpul discussions done in shas (is aish mshum mamon or cheitz, is the reason for b’fanai nechtav unechtam because of l’shmah or m’zuyaf, etc) show that the whole point is to understand.
But I suppose it makes sense that if you never tried to understnad anything you learned, you might make the mistake of ignoring the entire corpus of shas and focusing on the mnemonic devices that appear every 20 or 30 blatt.February 27, 2014 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #1006340February 27, 2014 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1006341
How many threads do we have here mixed up in one ?February 28, 2014 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1006342
Seforim propose the idea that now that Torah SheB’chsav was written, the role of “Sinai” (a.k.a. memorizing) is much less important.
Agree with PBA, and would add that even if you should memorize, the fact that all information being absorbed must be processed with proper understanding would preclude such a statement anyhow.February 28, 2014 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #1006343
First of all, when I say memorize I don’t mean random memorization of words with no understanding. Obviously you have to know what they mean and how to deal with basic Kashyas. But after that, I’m still not convinced that a lot of how we learn is how we were meant to.February 28, 2014 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1006344
Ok, but see the comment before yours.
Look, I don’t have an issue with how you learn, if you were mekabel a derech from a different rebbe than I was. There certainly are different mesoros about it.February 28, 2014 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #1006345
“The Rambam seems to disapprove of women learning in most situations.”
Actually, if you reread the Rambam cited in the opening message of this thread as well as the mechaber in reish mem vav sif vav, what they disapprove of is teaching them (see the Rma who qualifies this as well and states there things we must teach them), not if they learn something on their own. If they do learn something they earn schar on the level of aino meztuva vioseh. the value of that schar is HKB’H’s domain, not ours.February 28, 2014 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #1006346
if you were mekabel a derech from a different rebbe than I was
Arba Avos? What do you mean Arba Avos? There were only three?! Avraham, Yiztchak and Yaakov!!!
Still looking for someone to be Mechalek between and Eved and an Isha.February 28, 2014 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #1006347
Still looking for someone to be Mechalek between and Eved and an Isha.
I don’t think I understand the question.February 28, 2014 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1006348
Don’t look at me to be mechalek for you, gavr, I AM an Isha.
But you did make me laugh with your arba avos. You may be appalled, but I actually said that once to a certain male offspring. To his credit, he elucidated instead of laughing.February 28, 2014 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1006349
Apushata, I think you gave the clearest answer yet to the OP’s question. Maybe we should leave it at that.
(But please use your shift key for HKB”H)February 28, 2014 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1006350
DY: He wants to know why an Eved can’t volunteer like an Eino Metzuveh V’oseh like a woman can. The simplest Chilluk is that an Eved K’na’ani is still a Goy and a Goy can’t volunteer certain Mitzvos because he would be impinging on our Bris with HKBH.
That would be incorrect, though. The simplest answer is that an Eved can volunteer to learn Torah (according to the Rambam), just like he can volunteer to do any Mitzvah according to the Rambam.February 28, 2014 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #1006351oomisParticipant
Unquestionably, there is a greater need today for women to know at least SOME aspects of halacha, than in generations past. A woman certainly has to know laws pertaining to nashim. Is that not Torah? She needs to know enough Torah to be able to help her children with their homework, as most of the dads are not doing that on a regular basis. The Torah that most of us females learned is generally not what the men are learning, and I will bet you every Aleph that I ever earned in Limudei Kodesh that women know Tanach, hashkafa, and, certain dinim better than many men. Now, it’s possible I exaggerate, but I honestly don’t think so. Men are Gemarah oriented, women are generally more topic-oriented.
I enjoy a really excellent Chumash shiur, and I go to one every week, and also to a Hashkafa class early Sunday mornings, where we learn from a specific Godol’s teaching that year. This season we are learning from R’ Shmulevitz’ works, last year we learned from Rav Lopian’s “Michtav”. Etc., etc. It certainly does not hurt for women to be better-versed in mussar and relevant teachings.
I personally was always very much fulfilled to be a wife and mother, and now grandmother. I never felt I was somehow lesser a jew and person because I was not learning Gemarah. Not all women are content with that these days, and that IMO is because they have been raised in a very different world from the one in which I was. I am not certain it is to the betterment of society.February 28, 2014 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #1006352
DY: He wants to know why an Eved can’t volunteer like an Eino Metzuveh V’oseh like a woman can.
That would be incorrect, though.
Because an Eved is Chayiv in Mitzvos.
Also see the Levush there, where he equates the two.February 28, 2014 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1006353Yiddishe TaamMember
oomis- it’s refreshing to hear. I think my generation’s need to reestablish themselves juggling both( and equating) career, wife and motherhood is a stress. A mother can’t be replaced, no one will love your child as much as a mother ever will.
But just like firemen turned in firefighters and all jobs are now gender neutral.
BYM would like motherhood gender neutral.February 28, 2014 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1006354
golfer: That is ONE answer (which I already brought). What do other Rishonim say? Achronim? Lomdus? I’m not closing the thread once we finally got into chilukim!February 28, 2014 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1006355
GAW: It’s not incorrect because an Eved is Chayav in Mitzvos. It’s incorrect because the Rambam holds that a Goy can volunteer any and every Mitzvah.February 28, 2014 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1006356
Arba Avos? What do you mean Arba Avos? There were only three?! Avraham, Yiztchak and Yaakov!!!
At least you’re thinking outside the box.
Okay, bekius vs. havanah.
Obviously, some degree of each is required, each complements the other, and neither is complete without the other.
The various mesoros differ as to where the focus should be, but not whether or not they’re both important. There are also different mesoros as to what is considered proper havanah and how to achieve proper havanah.February 28, 2014 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1006357writersoulParticipant
I just want to agree 100% with what interjection (I think it was you…) said about how girls are taught Torah in a fluffy way. I take parsha class every Friday. We are taught divrei Torah- depending on whether the teacher remembers, sometimes we get the sources. Next week, I’m having a test. We will basically have to spit back all of the information from these divrei Torah. I’ve had class like this basically every year since at latest the middle of elementary school.
This is NOT to say anything negative about my parsha teacher, an extremely sweet and very intelligent woman. It has much more to do with the attitude that makes this considered “intellectual” learning. It is to a much greater extent spoonfeeding.
I’m learning a mussar sefer in a chabura and it kind of alarms me how much people say things like, “I was reading this great book by popular-rabbi-of-the-month and it said this” with absolutely no critical thinking whatsoever. The name of the book is irrelevant even, sometimes- just the fact that a publishing company thought fit to print it seems to be enough.
While I fully accept that there are people who find this sort of learning fulfilling, there are many, including myself and some of my friends, who feel chafed. To me, for example, one of my favorite classes is halacha, which is, ironically, the closest we get to gemara. We learn the practical halachos, but we also learn about machlekos haposkim, we learn about the logic behind various rulings, and we use our critical thinking skills to try to understand.
So, golfer, I really do think that, as interjection said, it is conditioning. Plenty of women, if given the opportunity, would jump at the kind of learning that you say they are incapable of. True, men’s and women’s brains are different, but I disagree as far as this application.March 2, 2014 4:56 am at 4:56 am #1006358
I emphasize with interjection and writersoul’s frustrations. I’ve observed the schoolwork done by many of my female relatives, from a wide range of schools, and have always imagined that many feel this way.
[but pretty much accessible to those on any skill level]
Halacha is more sticky. Even by men we find a lot of guys in the situation of “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”, paskening for themselves (or deciding when they don’t need a psak) with they’re own sevaros, while being pretty incompetent. As is often demonstrated to such posters here by the more knowledgeable amongst us. So while some comprehension is def. needed, it’s not so simple where to draw the line between useful background understanding, and unnecessary info which gives the illusion of a comprehensive grasp.March 2, 2014 7:12 am at 7:12 am #1006359writersoulParticipant
Logician: EVEN by men? There still really hasn’t been any evidence shown that women really can’t handle this “unnecessary reading comprehension” or that they are harmed by the “illusion” (why illusion necessarily?) “of a comprehensive grasp.”
What on earth is unnecessary reading comprehension?
I’ve learned Michtav Me’Eliyahu and it is extremely straightforward. Maybe it’s just me, but I just don’t find it intellectually stimulating in the way I’ve been indicating- perhaps spiritually, I don’t know, but not intellectually. (I absolutely and emphatically agree, though, that full and unedited sources should be taught, not just snippets on source sheets edited for emphasis. That just makes matters worse.)
Like you said, a lot of people can become self-proclaimed experts in halacha even when the opposite is the case- with this being true for both men and women. Does this mean that my halacha teacher should be giving me a list of halachos and telling me to memorize for the test? Of course there is memorization of basic facts in halacha- but the presence of thoughtful and fascinating analysis of the issues can really mark the difference between a dull and boring spitback and application of complex, interesting ideas.
In a DMC (admittedly a 2 AM one, just like the rant I’m giving right now), a friend told me how frustrated she is by the distaste (toward both men and women) against the “kalte Litvak approach” toward yiddishkeit: how far too many think that lomdus is not a path to true dveykus or whatever it is. This isn’t the case- true joy in Judaism, amongst both genders, can be achieved through learning Torah, even among people who may not have that same stirring of enthusiasm after some kind of a revival rally. I agree with her 100% and would venture to apply the same to women in general- not all women will find fulfillment in learning platitudes, however true they may be. Chanoch lenaar al pi darko can be the key here.March 2, 2014 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1006360
Logician: Your final paragraph is the Meiri’s S’vara why women shouldn’t learn. He says it should be Assur for everyone to learn for that reason but what can men do, they have a Chiyuv.March 2, 2014 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1006361
-“plenty of women would jump at the the kind of learning that you say they are incapable of.”
Did I quote you correctly?
First of all, I’m not the one saying women are incapable of anything. The OP started by quoting a Rambam regarding learning Torah that we’re trying to understand. He states there that “Rov hanashim ein da’atan mechuvenes l’hislamed..” and as a result their learning leads to “divrei havai.” DY suggested that the Rambam might be referring to a skill set required for Gemara, not necessarily what we know as logical thought. Even if we want to say, as b y maidel said, that today the amount of women capable of learning is no longer a minority (for some reason), the question remains- what exactly was the Rambam referring to?
And the question of the OP still stands- “What worth is there for women learning Torah?”
The question is not just one of how capable or intelligent women are. And for all the women who joined to tell us about the learning they do and the shiurim they attend, neither I nor anyone else here is questioning their intelligence or accomplishment.
I think the Gemara in Nedarim that some of you mentioned does state that a father should teach both his sons and daughters “Mikra”. I was quite satisfied originally with apushata’s suggestion that women receive their schar on the level of aino metzuva v’oseh, but are we positively sure that in all cases a woman is not metzuvah?
GAW is not closing the thread until we are mechalek between an Eved and an Isha with regard to learning Torah. Instead of we ladies trying to prove how smart we are, maybe we should get out of the way (please note, I’m ducking as I type this) to allow those more familiar with the relevant sugyos to draw a satisfactory conclusion to the OP’s original question.
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