How Much Money Does the Israeli Government Give to Kollel Families?

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  • #608015

    Confucious
    Member

    Specifically and as exactly as possible, how much money does the Israeli government give to Kollel families per month?

    What are the qualifications that are required to recieve this stipend? Is it the same standard national welfare system that anyone, religious or irreligious and kollel or non-kollel, qualify for based on income and family size? Or it is a specific stipend only Kollel families qualify for?

    #927094

    When I was in Eretz Yisrael, my neighbor in Geula explained that it was enough to live day to day but not enough to marry off kids. So when that was necessary, he would come to America to raise money.

    #927095

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nu… so what does Confucious say?

    #927096

    akuperma
    Participant

    You also have to make a distinction between various grants that are available to anyone (Jews, Arabs, Kollel, Employed, etc.), which are sometimes focused on helping large families (again, regardless of job status or ethnicity) – and anything specifically for being in kollel, which might include money paid to the kollel itself which the kollel uses to pay the individuals. The reason this distinction is important is that if the army ties government benefits to willingness to serve in the IDF, the first type will probably continue, and the second type will disappear (at least as far as hareidim who don’t serve in the army). However these are separate types of programs.

    #927097

    Confucious
    Member

    Yael.a said it is $200 a month for a family with children. How is it possible to subsist on so little?

    #927098

    The wife works?

    #927099

    yeshivasem
    Member

    the government give around 200 for Israelis and around 100 for non-israelis for a full day of torah learning. (kollels usually pay more than this however through Roshei Kollel fundraising etc.) the rest of the money that kollel couples need to survive on is created through parental support, wife working nissim veniflaos etc.

    #927100

    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    It’s a little complicated but here is the best that I know.

    Anyone learning in a registered yeshiva or kollel during both the morning an afternoon is entitled to “datot” money. This means that the yeshiva receives a stipend on his behalf. If the man is not married the yeshiva may keep the stipend of around 500-600 Shekel. If he is married it is passed on to him through the yeshiva/kollel and it is around 800-900 Shekel monthly. If the man is not a Israeli citizen the above amounts are somewhat less. This is not connected at all to financial status.

    If one has at least 3 children, no car, and his wife does not work. He is entitled to an additional payment (I can’t remember what it’s called right now) of between 1000-2000 Shekel monthly. This is also conditional on the fact that he only learns all day (not a rebbe, tutor, etc.) and has less than a certain monthly income.

    The above 2 payments come in towards the beginning of the month and are for the previous month. The one exception is that December’s stipend (which is supposed to arrive at the beginning of January) is always delayed and often shrunk pending the passing of the new budget for the year. Somehow I have a feeling the soldiers do not have that problem.

    There are additional subsidies that are available to any citizen with a low income.

    Between 40%-90% discount on property tax (a municiple tax levied on the resident).

    Little or no income tax – and in rare instances a monthly tax benefit (between 0-470 shekel).

    One who works must pay a 10% health tax while one who doesn’t pays 112 shekel monthly.

    Any resident receives around 150 shekel monthly per child – regardless of financial status.

    Although soldiers and policemen get free public transportation, and students receive a 50% discount, members of yeshivas and kollelim receive no discount at all.

    If I think of anything else I’ll try to add it.

    #927101

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The reason this distinction is important is that if the army ties government benefits to willingness to serve in the IDF, the first type will probably continue, and the second type will disappear (at least as far as hareidim who don’t serve in the army). However these are separate types of programs.

    I believe the point is that those who opt out of the army & national service would lose their “First Type” benefits as well.

    #927102

    plonis3141
    Member

    Mixing with the Lapid thread here. We get 750 NIS a month from the Mir. We have ba”h 7 kids. I don’t know what it is based on or if it gets higher depending on how long you’ve been there. I also don’t know if that is just the Mir, or if other kollels get the same.

    Of course, there are “better paying” kollels, but that is not money from the government, that is private donors giving money to support a kollel.

    For the record, for today’s dollar, that amounts to: approximately $200, as Yael pointed out.

    It is not enough for anyone, no matter how simply they live, to live on.

    #927103

    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    In addition, the majority of kollelim are funded by American dollars directly injected into the Israeli economy.

    #927104

    Confucious
    Member

    So the entire attack on kolleleit in Eretz Yisroel is over a mere $200 (750 NIS) a month?!? If the kollel families agreed to forfeit $200 a month ($2400 a year), the chilonim will have no further basis to keep harassing the kolleleit for taking money while not serving in their army?

    I say it may be worth giving up the $200 to get them off our backs.

    #927106

    Is this $200/month payment given to secular university students as well?

    #927107

    plonis3141
    Member

    There was some controversy about an ad that said that kollel members make something like 3,500 NIS a month. Noone knows where they got that # from, but it has certainly made the chilonim angry…

    #927108

    plonis: What is the correct amount?

    Also, if someone exempts himself from the army due to kollel, until what age is he legally prevented from being employed?

    #927109

    Toi
    Participant

    TLKY- forever, i think

    #927110

    Confucious
    Member

    I thought the rule was if you leave Kollel before age 28 you can get drafted, but after 28 you can go to work without serving.

    #927111

    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    The Litvishe Kiryas Yoelite

    currently the age is 28

    I think Ya’alon wants to lower it to 26

    #927112

    In New York, a family with four children can get up to $1,000 a month in food stamps benefits alone, depending on income eligibility. That’s without any Kollel attendence requirement and that’s aside from other governmental benefits offered (Welfare, Heap, Section 8, etc.)

    What the Israeli government is giving Kollel guys is a pittance.

    #927113

    Confucious
    Member

    gaw: Will Arab-Israeli citizens also lose “First Type” benefits if they opt out of Army service, or will they discriminate only against Torah Jews?

    #927114

    mdd
    Member

    Lit.K.J., I said already that the Earth is flat. Have not you heard?

    #927115

    plonis3141
    Member

    Hi, As I and Yael and Israeli-Chareidi said, the correct number is around $200.

    #927116

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    As the Charedi Population gets larger and larger, there will be less non-charedim to support them.

    Fairly soon (20-30 years) they will be the majority of the population and in about 50 years they will be around 75% of the population.

    How much can the charedim physically pay, how much taxes do you expect them to pay, You cant expect someone to pay over 50% of their income to a non-working segment of the population. They will balk at paying and for those who say to force them to pay, they will just leave greatly speeding up the demographics.

    #927117

    Naftush
    Member

    Litvishe, kollel students are not exempt from military service; less still are they allowed to “exempt themselves.” Instead, they are deferred on the specific grounds of their studies. Leaving kollel for any purpose (not only to go to work) revokes the deferral. The same applies to small numbers of university students who are allowed to earn degrees in specialized fields provided they sign on for extra years of army service afterward.

    You speak of “secular university students” but the university system doesn’t distinguish between secular and other. Students don’t get cash in hand from the government, although universities do give stipends to a small number of selected postgraduates. What does exist for universities is massive government funding, without which tuition might be twice as high as it is. Those who can’t gain admission to universities go to colleges, which get no subsidies of that kind and charge whatever their prestige and track record allow them to.

    Comparisons of kollel with university are mostly apples vs. oranges, and since in Israel both systems vie for a piece of the same pie, it’s almost structurally inevitable that each would accuse the other of leeching…

    #927118

    Confucious
    Member

    $200 a month per family doesn’t cost much in relative terms. It doesn’t cost much and is only a very little help.

    Indeed, many frum kollel families in EY don’t even take the money. (Brisk, Satmar, Toldos Ahron, NK, etc.)

    #927119

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gaw: Will Arab-Israeli citizens also lose “First Type” benefits if they opt out of Army service, or will they discriminate only against Torah Jews?

    I would think that the same rules would apply (Lapid complains about the Arabs as well, and Bennett would see it as an opportunity). Some sort of “national service”, army, or lose your benefits (including, if they really wanted to chap the idea (but they wont), the right to vote).

    #927120

    EY Mom
    Participant

    There is a lot of confusion on this topic.

    The approximately $200 a month is correct. That is what is referred to as “datot”. That is what the government gives married men who are learning full time in kollel. Not one penny more. Kollelim that pay more are doing so with funds that the roshei kollel raise privately, and that have nothing to do with the government.

    There is something else called “kitzvat yeladim”. This has nothing to do with being chareidi. It is an across-the-board monthly stipend that goes up according to the number of children the family has. It is not major money, but it helps. A family with 8 children gets about 1850 NIS per month, which is about $425-$450.

    Obviously, chareidi families on the whole get more kitzvat yeladim than their secular counterparts, because they have more children. This stipend only goes up to age 18, by the way, meaning that for every child who turns 18, the stipend gets reduced.

    Then there are tax breaks. These also apply equally, based on income and the number of children. There are income tax breaks, and then municipal tax breaks. These, too, have nothing to do with chareidim.

    Is it true that chareidim pay less income tax than the rest of the population? Yes, obviously, because our income bracket is much lower and our birthrate is much higher. Any chiloni family is welcome to make the same income and have the same amount of children, and they will get the exact same tax break.

    #927121

    EY Mom
    Participant

    And to zahavasdad:

    To call the chareidi community a “non-working segment of the population” is to buy into the lie that the secular Leftist media is trying – successfully – to market.

    Most chareidi women work. They work as teachers, speech therapists, graphic designers, interior designers, accountants, computer programmers, marketing writers and more. Suddenly, when it comes to chareidim, working women don’t count anymore.

    And I’ll tell you a secret: Most chareidi men work, too. Are many of them cheder rebbeim and maggidei shiurim? Yes. So what? If male teachers and professors in Israeli public schools and universities are considered working, then so are their chareidi equivalents. And if cheder rebbeim and maggidei shiurim are not considered working, then neither can male teachers and professors be considered as such. It works both ways.

    #927122

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There is something else called “kitzvat yeladim”. This has nothing to do with being chareidi. It is an across-the-board monthly stipend that goes up according to the number of children the family has. It is not major money, but it helps. A family with 8 children gets about 1850 NIS per month, which is about $425-$450.

    Bracing for New Economic Realities in Israel

    Now that the Charaidim will be out of the government, this benefit, which was promoted by Gimmel, as the main beneficiaries were Charaidim, as well as other similar benefits, will be cut significantly.

    #927123

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    EY Mom

    I happen to have fairly close relative in Kollel both here in US and in Isarael.

    I speak to them directly and indirectly , I do not get my kollel information from the news, I get it from family members and family news.

    #927124

    mdd
    Member

    EY Mom, kvutzat yeladim and datot come from taxes which the working population pays. The Chareidim do not produce those taxes. In fact, they are supporting you.

    #927125

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I apologize for the run on sentence. The words “which was promoted by Gimmel, as the main beneficiaries were Charaidim” are parenthetical.

    #927126

    The $200 a month doesnt even cover the cost of a week of food alone, for a family with six children.

    #927127

    akuperma
    Participant

    There are two issues that are be co-mingled and are really separate.

    One is the specific money given to kollel students for being in kollel. In the future this might be replaced with grants tied to having served in the army. Non-zionist hareidim don’t accept this money as a matter of principle. While these grants are only for the yeshivos, other subsidy programs assist secular institutions (e.g. universities) who have academic programs covering Jewish studies – and these subsidies tend to be more liberal.

    The second is Israel’s liberal social benefits programs which benefit all (hiloni Jews, Russian goyim, Palestinians, etc.) but are especially important for hareidim since one of the benefits is a liberal child allowance, and we have lots of kids. Most western countries with welfare states give such allowances (in the USA its a $1000 per child tax credit). One can argue that Israeli can’t afford the liberal welfare state, but try arguing that in a country where Obama’s economic and social policies would cause him to be regarded as a right-wing fanatic (and note that most hareidi Jews are clearly on the far left of the spectrum on economic matters, which in some way reflects our tradition of meeting human needs first and then worry where the money is coming from).

    #927128

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    There are two issues that are be co-mingled and are really separate.

    As I have pointed out, they are one and the same. Expect cuts in benefits, especially those which were passed by the Charaidi parties (note the article I quoted above).

    #927129

    plonis3141
    Member

    This is mixing with the otehr post about Yair Lapid. I guess Yael E, EY Mom and I are all working kollel wives in E”Y who seem to be in agreement that the facts on the ground are that most Israeli chareidi women work and pay income taxes, property taxes and the rest and are entitled to the social benefits that everyone gets. zahavasdad seems to think that we are wrong at that the chilonim are paying more than 50% of their money for all of us who don’t work.

    BTW, kitzvat yeladim was cut back significantly several years ago. It used to be more. I don’t remember the precise change, but something having to do with the number not increasing the same amount exponentially once you have more than 4 kids.

    #927130

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The family members of mine who are in Kollel in Israel have jet-setted back and forth between Israel and the US more times that I have , They do it at least a year, if not more

    If you can afford to fly back and forth to Israel, you dont need the money. I know I work and I cant afford to fly to Israel.

    And when they come to NY, they are here for about a month and they are not working when they are here

    #927131

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The family members of mine who are in Kollel in Israel have jet-setted back and forth between Israel and the US more times that I have , They do it at least a year, if not more

    Because they are “playing house”, just like anyone else being supported by Mommy & Daddy. There is no comparison to a real Benei Braker.

    Next thing you will tell me is that they live in Arzei, Ramat Eshkol, Maalot Dafna or one of the other “play house” communities. Maybe Mommy and Daddy bought them a house in Beitar or Ramat Bais Shemesh (which is a good investment, and still under Mommy’s name).

    #927132

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    We’re all playing house on the Lord’s dime.

    #927133

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Jerusalem. Dont ask me which community there I have no idea

    #927134

    plonis3141
    Member

    zahavasdad: As we in Israel would say “Mah Hakesher”?

    And therefore? If I had to guess, I would say that their parents are paying for their trips.

    What does that have to do with chilonim supporting them? Unless your kollel relatives have chiloni parents who are subsidizing their jetsetting…..(Which, BTW there would be nothing wrong with IMO, if that’s how they wanted to spend their money)

    #927135

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    We’re all playing house on the L-rd’s dime.

    Amen!!!!! Praise the L-rd and pass the ammunition!

    FYI, Rav Moshe has a Teshuva (can’t remember where) that specificly says the term L-rd is the Shem Hashem in English.

    #927136

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Their parents are charedim

    #927137

    plonis3141
    Member

    zahavasdad: If that’s the case, then what was the point about your post about the jetsetters? What does that have to do with chilonim supporting chareidim?

    #927138

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Their parents are charedim

    All Americans are Fake Charaidim, with Fake beards, and faux fur Straimels. Every real Yerushalmi knows this.

    #927139

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    All Americans are Fake Charaidim, with Fake beards, and faux fur Straimels. Every real Yerushalmi knows this. ,/em>

    They dont wear streimels, they are not Chassidic

    #927140

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    “They dont wear streimels, they are not Chassidic”

    Real Yerushalmi Charaidim wear straimels, even though they are not Chassidish.

    As I said, your relatives are FAKE Charaidim.

    #927141

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    This is true. Your relatives are fauxreidim.

    #927142

    EY Mom
    Participant

    Zahavasdad, then your relatives are not at all typical of the average Israeli family, or even of the average American family that actually lives here on their own without family support.

    Income taxes paid by chiloni families do nothing to support chareidi families. If anything, you might say that in cities like Yerushalayim, chilonim pay municipal taxes that fund services from which chareidim benefit. True. So what? Our municipal taxes fund things like the Batsheva Dance Troupe and the Israeli opera, tickets to which are heavily subsidized by the government.

    My taxes funded the bailout of the kibbutzim, too. So?

    What you are not getting is that 1) any chiloni family is welcome to have the same amount of children we have and get the exact same subsidy. They are entitled to it. It is their choice not to, and 2) That the average chareidi WORKING family makes far less than the average chiloni family, and the income tax breaks we get are the same they would get were they to live in our income bracket.

    There is no subsidy that benefits chareidim specifically except for the $200 per month that is given to the kollelim. Period. Those who can afford to jet back and forth to the US are being jetted by their families, and if their parents can afford it, may Hashem bless them.

    #927143

    Maybe they are Chardal?

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