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I just read the Mishpacha article with a long spread on Shloimi Dachs and his feelings about growing up as a child of divorce. He talks about how painful his parents’ divorce was. He adds that his parents’ divorce was unique, because the father lived a block away and was able to go to Shul with him every Shabbos, and the parents came to visit him in sleepaway camp with the same car (which usually doesnt happen, especially when one spouse remarries).
He says in the article that often getting a divorce is the better option for all involved. I agree that that’s the case in a tiny minority of families. Sadly, I wonder if, ch’v, by chance, this article plants a small seed and encourages even one parent to feel that they’re doing the right thing by seeking divorce, where the opposite is true, and there will be more harm done than help, by this divorce, there will be “tears on the Mizbayach”.
Perhaps if his parents’ post divorce behavior wasnt as unique in prioritizing the children, by their semblance of togetherness and peace for the children’s sake, I would agree with his statement that sometimes divorce is the better option. (I do agree it applies in a tiny minority of cases). The article is named “I’ve been there”, has he really experienced the true animosity and divisiveness of a typical divorce? I think not, B”H.
Realistically, despite efforts towards that goal, most parents arent united and peaceful at all after divorce, with bitterness, anger and hostility increasing as time goes on, and that wreaks more havoc on children.
It’s a matter of the worse of two evils.
OfCourse: I completely agree with you that this justifying divorce (which admittedly is sometimes necessary) is wrong and encourages unnecessary divorce, which is harmful for the children and even the couple themselves.
I also believe there are issurim for a remarried woman regarding her ex-husband, that are greater for her than with any other guy.
Very rarely is divorce justified
My parents had a ‘good’ divorce, much like Shloime Dachs’ parents. They both came to all my (and my brother’s) school events, visiting day, birthday parties etc; they always lived within walking distance of each other; they were pretty good about keeping a consistent parenting style and if one of us needed to be disciplined, they would talk on the phone and decide on a course of action together. Rather odd how they managed to be so amicable post-divorce when they couldn’t manage even basic civility while married, but ok. They’re an example of divorce done right. It still hurts, yes, and it was traumatic, but we both came out fine because they always put our needs ahead of their issues. I had no problem getting married (and keeping up great shalom bayis)and my brother is just entering the parsha and will probably be ok too. My parents walked me down the aisle together because they raised me together, even though they were not married for most of that time; when my brother IY’H gets married, they will do the same. It’s the parents who can’t keep it civil who ruin their kids.
My husbands parents have been divorced for over 20 and there is still lots of friction. My husband is scarred from the years and years of fighting. He feels like he was literally pulled in half his whole life. Parents who feel that divorce is the only solution should really be careful about it will effect their children. They should be especially careful not to say bad things about the other parent to the child. This has detrimental effects on the child!
Parents who feel that divorce is the only solution should really be careful about it will effect their children.
canine, once a couple is divorced, they are considered as strangers. the same halachas that apply to a random man and woman on the street apply to them.
truth be told, really? divorce is rarely justified? i’m pretty sure you don’t know the inside story on most divorces. before anyone takes a drastic step like divorce, they think it through very thoroughly. no one wants to be in that situation, no wants that stigma attached to themselves. but when a marriage is intolerable, the only option is divorce.
I think your question is a sad, flawed question. It shows how the community thinks it’s their business to discuss other people’s VERY private lives. If you really care about what;s best for the family, how about shutting up and NOT talking about things that don’t concern you. That is the biggest chesed (and probably halachically mandated thing) you can do for the family. If you are asking for yourself, well, I am sorry for you that YWN is your forum….and if you want to promote healthy marriages, how about starting programs, shiurim, a website for how to maintain a good marriage even when it’s hard. WE HAVE TO STOP GOSSIPING LIKE GOYIM and start minding our own business!!!!
PS- and honestly, can anyone EVER answer that question for anyone besides their own family? You think you are the one to judge? Well, that has been Hashem’s job for almost 6,000 years now…(if not more)
Brooklyn Yenta: before anyone takes a drastic step like divorce, they think it through very thoroughly.
If people really thought it through, they would figure out a way to do it much more peacefully and expediently. Its usually a whimsical decision of “enough already. I’m going for the greener pastures on easy street”.
Please please do not get divorce advice from here! Speak to someone who deals with shalom bayis issues and is known to excellent on the topic. Yeshivaworld will delete anyone I mention but I know someone who is great with this in Monsey and someone awful and has ruined numerous marriages. So where-ever you live make sure you do not get advice from random people online and make sure you speak to someone who really knows and wants to make marriages work, but also will recommend divorce if it is only option.
tbt: we obviously don’t know the same people. in the cases i know (unfortunately there are many) the divorces were the result of very serious issues, and where possible, every action was taken NOT to go that route. but in cases of abuse of different sorts, or one spouse leaving yiddishkeit, divorce is the ONLY option.
My parents divorced when I was 2 and I am REALLY grateful for that. There was horrific abuse involved, and I’m glad they divorced before I was old enough to remember any of what happened. There were still tug-of-wars over the years where I was used as a pawn, and because of that I got married when I was an old maid by today’s standards. I was determined to break the cycle, though. It took me years to see how Hashem’s hand is in everything. I am grateful to be raising frum children and pray to HKBH to have frum grandchildren…
Brooklyn Yenta: Do you really believe that the ever rising divorce rate is justified, or mostly justified? I don’t (not discussing individual cases)
truth be told,
One reason for the rise is that people are no longer willing to stay inabusive marraiges now that much of the stigma is gone
abusive marriages represent only a very small portion of divorces. i am in complete accordance with tbt. the vast majority of divorces are completely avoidable.
Q: How often is Divorce the better option for the entire family?
A: For the couple always, for the kids never.
I speak as a rebbi who sees these kids struggling immotionaly and socially. They are emabarrased every time anything is mentioned to do with marriage, they keep things bottled up, and suffer in silence, hoping no-one will notice.
At the moment I am involved with 10yr old boy, whose parents divorced because of violence. He has been thrown from pillar to post, is embarrased to go to shul because he has no daddy to sit next to, and is extremely quiet and reserved. My information only comes through the rov involved, who asked me keep an eye open for the poor kid!
Ask any adult who has dealings with kids and invariably they will say the kids suffer immensly.
I am not saying that divorce should never happen. Only the kids should be thought about.
My motto is “make your marriage work for the sake of the children” if there is no way “make your divorce work for the sake of the children”.
Many parents forget that their first obligation is the children and their attitude is “don’t I deserve….” the answer is “NO”. The kids deserve 2 parents who play fair, 2 parents who put their needs above their own, etc. 2 people decide to get married and have kids. Once you bring kids into the picture they have to be the top priority. YOU DO what you have to for the sake of the kids. If that means giving up or giving in thats what you do. If it means counseling thats what you do. YOU do whatever it takes to bring Shalom Bayis into your home for the sake of the kids. If it means giving up your “so called good friends who mean well” or even moving to another community you do whatever it takes to keep your family together.
In this “ME” generation everyone puts their own needs before the children and it has had a devastating effect on our youth. It should be pounded into the heads of all marriageable age adults. If you marry and bring children into this world your first obligation is your kids. Do not take advice from your friends. Do not allow your friends into your marriage. Don’t listen to anyone that tells you what YOU deserve. Think about what your kids deserve. Keep working together with your spouse to make a safe and happy environment for your kids.
There are so many couples who jumped into divorce only to realize when the dust settled that it was the worst decision they had made. Why did they rush into it, who advised them to do it? It isn’t any better now so what was the rush, they aren’t happier outside the marriage, maybe they could have worked on it.
Divorce is not always the answer it is just another set of problems.
yaff80 – For the couple also almost never.
Truth be told is telling the truth, even with me.
Before I get yelled at -“What about abusers?”
Even in abuse cases, the abuser almost never starts out this way. They just didn’t get the help they needed before they became this way.
And No, I’m not an abuser!
ramateshkolian – You’re 100% correct. But unfortunately people don’t point people who have marital problems in the right direction. Also, we love to talk about these type of things -it’s a live soap opera. But, just realize your talking about this family will have repercussions forever.
shlishi
Wgat is the source of ” the vast majority of divorces are completely avoidable.” ?
reason for the rise is that people are no longer willing to stay inabusive marraiges now that much of the stigma is gone
Lets see: In western civilization, the divorce rate is over fifty percent. The more conservative civilizations are much less. The Hollywood relationship failure rate is about 87%.
By your deduction, western civilization breeds abusers and spouses more susceptible to abuse. OK.
So the more liberal one is, the more likely they are to abuse. Hmm.
Does this math add up?
ABUSE is NOT ACCEPTABLE and should be called out at the very first sign!
DO NOT WAIT till the abuse continues. STOP it from the get go. Hold the abuser accountable and don’t accept the apology without therapy. Never accept “I will never do it again” without having the abuser accountable to someone other than the spouse! Make sure someone knows about it from the get go whether it is a therapist, a Rav, your parents. DO NOT keep it private. Don’t make a nothing from it, it is a something. Don’t make excuses for it, whether s/he was drunk, upset, depressed whatever. Each of these issues are issues and the result is bad. The issues have to be dealt with so the end result does not happen again.
Thank you Aries again, for your clear-headed posts.
A voice of reason in a sea of insanity!
Please stop this thread now. The only people who can comment on this topic are people who have been divorced or children of divcorces, myself being in the latter category. Unless you lived through a divorce, you have no right to comment on it. In my case, I was blessed that my parents divorced when they did. The divorce stopes the constant fighting in the house and was a huge relief for me and my siblings. Any bystander might have said the divorce was wrong, but unless you are part of the family, you would have no idea what was going on and have no right to comment.
the answer to the above question:
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE
DIVORCE IS NEVER A BETTER OPTION!!!! A THOUSAND MILLION TIMES NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
have i expressed myself clearly enough. the question is wrong, because divorce is never a better option.
i will agree though that in the rare case it is the ONLY option, never better, but in most divorce cases, the couple (both) should be lined up against the wall, given “six of the best” and told to start behaving themselves.
there is no “product” of divorce that does not carry the scares with him for life!!
the child didnt ask to be born, but if the parents produced him/her, the child is entitled to his/her birthright of two parents raising him/her together.
but we live in a disposable world and so marriages too have become disposable, something to be discarded if it gets a little hard, instead of both sides giving up their pride and working on the marriage like growups should.
so please, let no-one think for even a remote second that divorce can ever be a better option!!!
Matan: “Any bystander might have said the divorce was wrong, but unless you are part of the family, you would have no idea what was going on and have no right to comment”: agreed 100%.
tzvideer
very well said.
Matan1
anyone is entitled to comment here. in fact, non divorcees are better able to comment, without confusing their personal biases from their scars. they can give a better judgement on this issue.
There was horrific abuse involved, and I’m glad they divorced before I was old enough to remember any of what happened.
How do you know?
Ofcourse – Like I posted previously -even a lot of those cases could have been prevented, if professional help got involved sooner than later.
NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVRE
DIVORCE IS NEVER A BETTER OPTION!!!! A THOUSAND MILLION TIMES NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
have i expressed myself clearly enough. the question is wrong, because divorce is never a better option.
I, my kids, my sister and her children are Shomrei Torah U’Mitzvos today because of my parents divorce. Had they remained married, I would, in all probability, be a m’chalel Shabbos today.
Is it your opinion that it is better that I, my sister and our children be not frum?
The Wolf
please MODS, don’t endorse this!! please shut this down!!!! it’s just nobody’s business to discuss this!
I don’t understand the objection to discussing this. It is a totally appropriate issue to discuss. How is it less anybody’s business than anything else which is not immediately relevant to someone. Besides, it might be relevant to some of our posters.
ramat
this is being discussed on a sociological level, not an individual level, and it is okay and in fact potentially beneficial.
wolfish
individual exceptions may exist. nevertheless, on a societal level, divorce is very bad. using a case of someone becoming a baal teshuva post divorce is somewhat unique, relatively speaking.
Time and place for everything. Sometimes better to stay married, sometimes better to divorce. If we were arguing the when and where then fine. But I can’t let this go on with people using the extremes which they are using
“Eighty-Eight”
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