November 19, 2022 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #2140404chesednameParticipant
1) why do we pour water from becher into wine bottle before kiddush?
2) it says if you’re sandek for 4th or 5th generation (which one?) you go straight to gan eden, mekor?November 19, 2022 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #2140414
Who does 1)?November 19, 2022 8:57 pm at 8:57 pm #2140419
1 – it’s a chumra of not drinking from a kos pagum.November 19, 2022 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2140425abooseinakParticipant
1- do you mean water into the Becher? Never heard of into the wine bottle
2- lol where does it say that I never heard of that …. Do you mean “ppl say “?
Word your question properly pleaseNovember 19, 2022 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #2140430abooseinakParticipant
1- did you mean into the becher? I never heard into a wine bottle
2- where does it says this I never heard of that …. Do you mean “ you heard ppl say it “?
Word your question properly my friendNovember 19, 2022 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #2140434☕️coffee addictParticipant
I’m not smartNovember 19, 2022 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #2140462Chaylev HalyahParticipant
This has nothing to do with being smart….
Smart means figuring things out – problem solving.
This is just if you happen to know something.
Who is the current PM of Pakistan? Does that make you smart?
It means you know global politics.
If someone knows the answer to these questions, it means they are knowledgeable in that subject; not smart necessarily.November 19, 2022 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2140466
Chaylev – 100% rightNovember 19, 2022 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2140467
We have a handful or more members here. (mods how many members are here?)
I was thinking if we could agree on a middah, lets all work on it for the next month? or 3 months? and than move onto a new middah.
We can give each other chizzuk, and motivation.
What do you think? and which middah should be the first one?November 19, 2022 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2140469smerelParticipant
>>>1) why do we pour water from becher into wine bottle before kiddush?
I’ve never see anyone do so
>>>2) it says if you’re sandek for 4th or 5th generation (which one?) you go straight to gan eden, mekor?
Probably the same place that is says if you have seven sons you go straight to Gan Eden. Along with various other straight to Gan Eden methods. To be sandek for four generations you would need major arichus yomim.November 20, 2022 12:03 am at 12:03 am #2140477
I’m surprised no one’s seen the minhag of pouring a drop of water from the becher into the bottle of kiddush wine – I’ve seen it by about half of the families I used to eat by when I was dorming and having my meals outside.November 20, 2022 12:43 am at 12:43 am #2140485ujmParticipant
“pour water from becher into wine bottle before kiddush”
It’s a very common minhag.November 20, 2022 6:39 am at 6:39 am #2140490BaltimoreMavenParticipant
1) why do we pour water from becher into wine bottle before kiddush?
First let’s explain that one must rinse out a Kos before using it for Kiddush. The Gemora in Pesachim explains 10 things relevant to a Kos, some of which are meakev. Rinsing inside and out, shtifa and hadocha, are required. Usually some water is left in the Kos rather than emptying it all out after the Rinsing.
One reason was given, in case the wine in the bottle is pogum, since adding water to pogum wine allows us to use it for Kiddush. Pogum wine cannot be used for Kiddush.
A second reason is that, kabbolistically, the wine represents Din as it is usually red, and water represents rachamim. We want to be mamtik the din with chessed and rachamim so we add some water from the Kos to the wine.
Added bonus questions:
How many segulos for Parnossa or hatzlocha do we find in the Mishna Berura, which is a halocha sefer?November 20, 2022 6:45 am at 6:45 am #2140493Sam KleinParticipant
I’ve seen many families who have this minhag doing it with pouring water from the cois into the wine bottle.November 20, 2022 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2140508
They fill the cup with water, then pour just a drop into the bottle?November 20, 2022 9:38 am at 9:38 am #2140536
“1) why do we pour water from becher into wine bottle before kiddush?”
The reason I’ve heard (I believe from R” Belsky Z “l) is that during the time of shas, wine had to be diluted as it was thick syrupy and high in alcohol content. so much so that pouring cup is often described as “mozgin” literaly – diluting.
Today in a nod to Talmudic practice we too are “mozgin” the wine before kiddush
#2 sounds made upNovember 20, 2022 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2140554Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
This could be an old minhag as during gemora times wine was always diluted before drinking
Ome Polish chosid explained a similar minhag that we show that we are not drunkards like othersNovember 20, 2022 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2140565
Where is this brought down in the S”A?November 20, 2022 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2140575fishParticipant
התשובה של היהודי מבוליטימור הכי חכמהNovember 20, 2022 10:17 am at 10:17 am #2140551BeUrBestParticipant
2) I heard it quoted from the sefer Leket Yosher, authored by a talmid of the terumas hadeshen. I never actually looked it up. However, when I heard it quoted it was in the presence of R’ Chaim Kanievsky zt”l and he responded to the questioner about it so it seems like he thought it might be a real thing.November 20, 2022 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #2140680
Among other places
OC 473:1November 20, 2022 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #2140699Reb EliezerParticipant
See MB O’CH 182,27 that if you pour back the wine in the kos that was drunk from bedeaved it will not pasel the wine in the bottle as it becomes batel but lekatchila we should add from the bottle to it before pouring it back.November 20, 2022 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #2140704Reb EliezerParticipant
As mentioned above when you add wine to the kos drunk from, from the bottle before pouring it back, there is no reason before kiddush to add water to the bottle because the bottle never becomes pogum.November 20, 2022 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2140712
OC 473:1 talks about Makom seuda and kiddush. Don’t see anything about pouring water from a becher into a bottle.November 20, 2022 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #2140775
I’m not sure where you looked
OC 473 is leil Pesach the first cup ie Kiddush
The very first word is Mozgin
what does “mozgin” mean?
Before you say it means to pour. See Rambam Chametz umatza 7:9
Mozgin means “we dilute”
now you could say it is lav davka, our wine doesn’t need dilution it is already diluted etc etc
but it does talk about diluting the wine
Now you know!November 20, 2022 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #2140798
Haha I looked at 273. Either way, it doesn’t say pouring a drop of water from becher to bottle.November 20, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2140801Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
nobody was drinking undiluted wine during Gemora time. Like you are not drinking juice concentrate nowadays.November 20, 2022 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #2140852
I guess I don’t really understand your question thenNovember 21, 2022 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2140941
My question is: Where is it brought down that one should specifically pour a drop of water from a Becher into a wine bottle?November 21, 2022 10:32 am at 10:32 am #2140952
Who said it is?November 21, 2022 1:42 pm at 1:42 pm #2141010
here is my question to all those who are makpid on pouring water into the wine bottle
Are you careful to not pagum after kiddush?
bc you aren’t supposed to drink from the kos, then pour it into other peoples cups – thats pagum
In order to not pagum, you would need to pour off first, then drink (plus it’s more hygenic)November 21, 2022 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #2141012
@non sefardi troll
It may not say so in halacha, but it may be purely for convenience sake. We are washing out the becher before kiddush anyways, so we leave a little water behind and use that to be mozeg (dilute) the wine.November 21, 2022 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #2141013
mentch, pouring into other peoples’ cups after drinking is not a shailoh because kiddush has been performed. You need the cos not to be pagum for it to be kosher for kiddush – the kiddush is done, and the people are drinking from a kol shel bracha after the fact. It is also not a chiyuv to drink from kiddush for those who are yotzei, but it is the minhag to do so and some say it might be a chiyuv at night, but me’ikar hadin it isn’t necessary.
re, drinking first then dispensing: chazal say that we’re not supposed to drink from a cup and then give it to someone else, as the machlah can be on the cup (chazal clearly understood about germs) but the exception to this is wine, because alcohol kills germs.
Nafka mina would be grape juice.November 21, 2022 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #2141014
Where is this brought down?November 21, 2022 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2141037
SA 182:4 Certainly extends pagum to those sitting at the table (though granted he brings it as a machlokes)November 21, 2022 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #2141043Just.A.GuyParticipant
Knowing or not knowing the answers has nothing to do with being smart. It is a matter of knowledge/education/or whatever you want to call it.November 21, 2022 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #2141048
I’ll look it up later imyhNovember 21, 2022 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #2141054
Just use Sefaria ! 🙂November 21, 2022 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2141057
“Where is this brought down?”
where is what brought down?November 21, 2022 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #2141058
Where is it brought down that one should pour a drop of water from a Becher into a wine bottle?
How were you able to answer ubiquitin’s question before it was posted?November 21, 2022 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #2141121☕️coffee addictParticipant
“How were you able to answer ubiquitin’s question before it was posted?”
😂😂😂😱😱😱November 22, 2022 8:38 am at 8:38 am #2141335levi365248Participant
Regarding the second one I have some anecdotal evidence. I think it was the great-great-great-grandson of Moron HaRav Elyashiv זצוק”ל, cam to ask if this illustrious forebear would serve as Sandak. This was a Tekufa that Moron did not make his time available to take the Mitzvah of Sandakois. Nevertheless this one of this offspring was the first one to sport the first grand-grand…..son להבדיל בין חיים לחיים. So he told Moron that he would be guaranteed Gan Eden. Rabbi Elyashiv mused that he was all his life working to go through the front door of Gan Eden and not through the backdoor.
This maaseh is brought in “learning to live” distributed by Feldheim, but I could not find the maaseh when I browsed through the book just not, I am sure it is there, but do not know the exact page.November 22, 2022 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2141369
How were you able to answer ubiquitin’s question before it was posted?😊😂🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
And I was actually hoping for an answer…November 22, 2022 9:25 am at 9:25 am #2141367
nobody said you shouldNovember 22, 2022 10:07 am at 10:07 am #2141425
@non sefardi troll
“Where is it brought down that one should pour a drop of water from a Becher into a wine bottle?”
I already answered the question earlier. You just ignore the people who don’t fargin.
“It may not say so in halacha, but it may be purely for convenience sake. We are washing out the becher before kiddush anyways, so we leave a little water behind and use that to be mozeg (dilute) the wine.”November 22, 2022 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #2141478
So it seems like a Minhag.November 22, 2022 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #2141492
@yabia omer, a Minhag to use multiple user names or a minhag to troll?November 22, 2022 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2141513
A minhag for you to call everyone a troll.November 22, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2141515
why don’t you read the replies
” …the minhag of pouring…” ”
“It’s a very common minhag.”
“I’ve seen many families who have this minhag …”
“This could be an old minhag…”November 22, 2022 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2141516
Pouring the water is not a minhag. Pouring from the becher probably is.
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