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my friends to get married younger and not wait until their 30 and have more than 2 – 5 kids?
You can’t. Pressuring people backfires. There are so many issues involved in these decisions, and it’s unlikely you know all the issues involved, and at the end of the day, people have to decide for themselves when they are ready to get married. It’s a really bad idea (most of the time) to pressure someone to date when she doesn’t want to.
btw, I just reread your question – the way it is phrased, it sounds like your friends are waiting until they have 2-5 kids before they get married! If that is the case, then yeah, you should speak to them about it. Or change your friends.
lilmod ulelamaid +1
“I feel like its an issue when someone comes from a family of only like 3 kids (frum famlies) than all they want is like 2 – at most 5 kids?”
If someone comes from a family of 3 kids and wants 5 kids, then they’ve gone up!
I agree with you that ideally, people should want more than 5 kids, but there’s nothing you can do about it – certainly not at this stage.
Imho, even though everyone should want to have as many kids as possible, it’s not something they should be doing if they don’t want to and are only doing it because someone pressurred them. Of course they should want to, but you can’t make them want to. And again, you don’t know all the reasons and factors involved.
What’s this business of deciding how many kids to have. That is Hashem’s business, not yours.
Joseph, you’re right, but you can’t force someone else to have kids. Also, she is talking about people getting married late.
“lilmod ulelamaid – They dont like kids neither do i. Do i still want at least 15? yes.”
huh? You don’t like kids but you want at least 15? What?
Tznius are you married?
You can’t stop people from eating treif either. But if someone suggests the possibility of eating a Big Mac you ought to object. Same idea about suggesting the possibility of interfering with Pru U’rvu.
Eating treif =/= having 3 kids
“lilmod ulelamaid – They dont like kids neither do i. Do i still want at least 15? yes.”
huh? You don’t like kids but you want at least 15? What?
I guess she wants them for the mitzvah. Either that, or she figures she’ll like her own kids, or start liking kids in general once she has her own.
You can’t stop people from eating treif either. But if someone suggests the possibility of eating a Big Mac you ought to object. Same idea about suggesting the possibility of interfering with Pru U’rvu.
They’re not talking about not being yotzei their chiyuv, Joseph.
(Or rather, their husband’s chiyuv.)
Comlink, after honoring your parents can you stop honoring them since you were “yotzei” the mitzvah of Kibud Av Veim?
Joseph – it’s not the same at all. From what I’ve heard, there are heteirim to stop having kids at a certain point or to take breaks.
It’s certainly not the same level of chiyuv. You aren’t supposed to give mussar to people who won’t listen to you unless it’s something that’s an outright issur in the Torah. I don’t think this falls in that category.
In any case, if they just get married late, they for sure aren’t being “over” on anything.
There are also circumstances where there are heteirim to stop honoring one’s parent.
There’s a chiyuv for a man to be married by 20. Any later requires a heter. And the heter is only till his 24th birthday. Beis Din is supposed to force him to marry if he isn’t by 20 (or 24 with a heter for Limud Torah), per S”A.
There are an awful lot of guys in Lakewood who only start dating at 23 or 24.
Also, I thought she was talking about girls since she is a girl and she referred to them as her “friends”.
In any case, nowadays the Beis Dins don’t force people to get married by a particular age.
Joseph: “There are also circumstances where there are heteirim to stop honoring one’s parent.”
And as a general rule, I wouldn’t go around giving people mussar about the way they relate to their parents.
I hadn’t intended to give mussar. I intended to discuss various points of this topic in a general discussion.
I didn’t mean that you were giving mussar. We were discussing whether or not Tznius should give mussar to her friends about getting married younger. I think it’s a bad idea, and my understanding was that you think she should.
Explain that in order for the Messiah to come all of the souls that have to be born are born. So by delaying having children they are lengthening the Golus.
Well then by that logic all girls should get married at 13 and all boys should get married at 14 whether or not they want to or feel ready. Also, everyone should get fertility treatments even if they don’t need them so that everyone will have triplets every year.
Oh,so is the problem that the GUYS you want to date don’t want to go out yet? I thought you were talking about your female friends. Which is it?
Joseph, please provide sources that honoring one’s parents has the same halachik obligation as having children.
“Explain that in order for the Messiah to come all of the souls that have to be born are born. So by delaying having children they are lengthening the Golus.”
Abba_S: Is that why men are chiyuv to have children and pru ur’vu is a monumental mitzvah?
They’re both commanded to us in the same Torah.
That doesn’t mean that they have the same halachic obligation. There are different categories and levels in halacha.
Commanded yes.
So the answer is no, saying that they are delaying the Moshiach’s arrival is just a way to add pressure but it really just comes down to, Because Hashem said so?
What gives you the idea that Pru U’rvu is of a lower level or has more heteirim than Kibud Av Veim?
explain to them how enjoyable it is to have children
Nothing to do with a lower level or having more heteirim. You assume that we can learn the halachos of having children from the halachos of honoring one’s parents. Do you have a source for this?
c”v, I didn’t say that P’ru u’rvu is a lower level. I was referring to the idea that a person has to have as many children as possible, and I was saying that it MIGHT not be in the same halachic category as the Mitzvah of Kibbud Av v’Eim. The fact that they are both halachos does not mean they are necessarily in the same halachic category.
There are things that you are supposed to give others mussar for and things you aren’t. Even if Kibbud Av v’Eim is something that you are supposed to give others mussar for it doesn’t necessarily follow that having as many kids as possible is something that you have to give others mussar for (which was the topic under discussion).
LB – You should be doing it because it’s a Mitzvah, not in order to bring Mashiach. But that can be something that you have in mind as well.
I don’t think you can convince anyone that they are ready for marriage and parenthood until they are ready (remember all those threads on divorce, anyone?)
That said, the best thing is to show by example- those who are happily married raising beautiful families can show those who have doubts about it that they are missing out on something special.
Tznius, if the person you want to go out with is not yet dating I suggest you move on and consider others who are dating.
Abba_S: Is that why men are chiyuv to have children and pru ur’vu is a monumental mitzvah?
Pru ur’vu is the first Mitzvah in the Torah given to Noah after the flood and is there to populate the earth. This is a commandment that is on both Jew and Gentile and has nothing to do with the Mashiach.
As far as Mashiach is concerned, would Hashem bring him early and deprive some souls from being born? I don’t know. It is also possible that he hasn’t been born yet and you or one of the other female posters maybe his mother.
Ahron – “explain to them how enjoyable it is to have children”
Hashem made them cute and lovable otherwise they wouldn’t survive, people would throw them out like garbage as they are to much trouble especially as they get older.
“So the answer is no, saying that they are delaying the Moshiach’s arrival is just a way to add pressure but it really just comes down to, Because Hashem said so?”
The thread was, how to convince someone to marry early not why you should have kids.
i meant the nachas and maturity
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