September 23, 2013 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #976152ultimaterockMember
miritchka, omg. you’re such an inspiration! i was at my cousin recently and she said she tried on her entire wardrobe while sitting down to see if any roll up above her knee. she also got rid of any that did. personally i think its best to try it out sitting down before you buy it…September 23, 2013 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #976153gavra_at_workParticipant
The reason why they were so effective was because they didn’t go overboard. No “4 inches”, no “people are dying because of you”, no “R. Falkism’s”, etc. Halacha speaks for itself, made up chumrahs don’t.September 23, 2013 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #976154miritchkaMember
ultimaterock : for me, its gotta be cold turkey or it doesnt work. I will definitely be more careful when i shop and probably wont buy skirts online anymore either.
gavra_at_work: You are so right, “devarim hayotz’im min halev, nichnasim el halev”September 24, 2013 2:21 am at 2:21 am #976155thinkingoutloud91Member
I Only read the beginning and end of the comments but firstly you cannot look at someone weird and expect them to all of the sudden dress that way. If they feel uncomfortable enough they may dress more appropriately. ( I know when I go to the shul my in-laws daven at I make sure to dress more appropriately then I generally would. MAYBE asking the Rebbitzin to talk to the women will work. There is no need for you to switch shuls .. just dont look! Anyways shul is not a place to mingle… so there should be no reason this issue should come upSeptember 24, 2013 3:21 am at 3:21 am #976156OutsiderMember
Since when is Shul NOT a place to mingle? (Just had to ask because it is a place for a community to meet)
I’m not even a card carrying Baal Teshuva… and I gotta agree. Rules are Rules. Put a sign in front of the Shul informing everyone that a proper dress code is required.
As someone in power, you have ever right to enforce the rules that you feel are important and restrict membership and/or entry to anyone who feels differently. Mail a general letter, and if that doesn’t work, then face the problem head on.
Either you’re going to have standards or you aren’t.September 24, 2013 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #976158RedlegParticipant
Outsider, here are a couple of points. You are correct that a kehilla, or any private undertaking has the right to set and enforce dress codes and other rules of behavior (vide “no shoes no shirt no service”), but no individual in the group has such rights. The must be set by the kehilla as a whole, either by the governing board or by membership vote.September 24, 2013 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #976159zahavasdadParticipant
Outsider, they are not talking here about a Shul. they are talking about the community as a whole.
If a commumnity has several shuls, it doesnt matter there is still one communitySeptember 24, 2013 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #976160rebdonielMember
Turning away women from shul for not being dressed appropriately would solve this problem, but this could never be implemented for obvious reasons.September 25, 2013 2:19 am at 2:19 am #976162frumnotyeshivishParticipant
I’m so confused. Women? In shul? What are they doing there? Nothing better to do? Regardless, if the reason for “violating” (taking the facts and halachah as presented) halachah is a lack of knowledge, respectful communication is obviously the solution.
The OP, however, made it pretty clear that their knowledge isn’t his issue. I then see 4 possibilities of dealing with his issue: 1. Persuasion; 2. Compulsion; 3. Separation; 4. Nothing.
1. Persuasion is generally difficult.The most effective form would be to convince someone to act in their own self-interest while demonstrating why and how you care about their self-interest. Empathy and rapport needed.
2. Compulsion is most effective in the short term and least effective in the long term. A gun to one’s head works for nearly anything until the police get there. Resentment will inevitably arise. Incarceration may result. This one is least pleasant. Moving to Afghanistan may help you avoid incarceration though.
3. Separation works well in dealing with others’ behavior you can’t control. The problem is, often you have to do the separating or employ methods 1 or 2 to have the other party leave.
4. Nothing. This is the solution for the person who is comfortable in their own skin and recognizes that attempting to control others is useless and fruitless, and often a sign of personality disorders.
Don’t get me wrong, caring about others is important. But that’s not what these things tend to be about. And cut the sanctimonious shmiras einayim and arvus garbage. Arvus requires that you be decent to others. Shmiras einayim is only an issur “im ikka darka achrina.” Getting the women to stop doing laundry in public wasn’t what the gemara said. Just don’t go to places of pritzus unless you have to.August 1, 2022 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #2111133
You need a good, strong, Rov who isn’t afraid of the gevirim and is ready, willing and able to stand up for Halacha.August 2, 2022 12:26 am at 12:26 am #2111159GadolhadorahParticipant
Reb Yosef must be having a bad night with the Mrs who apparently has him sleeping in the basement with their two cats. ….trying to resuscitate a 2013 vintage thread that had morphed into his favorite misogynistic themes cloaked in a familiar obsession with lack of adherence to his “tzinius guidlines”.August 2, 2022 12:26 am at 12:26 am #2111154commonsaychelParticipant
@ujm, you need to get a hobby and off the web if your resorting to digging up 10 year old threads.August 2, 2022 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2111284takahmamashParticipant
I was reading the beginning of this thread, and so many wrote comments about having the rebbetzin talk to the women who were allegedly failing with a lack of tznius. How do we know that it wasn’t the rebbetzin who was the problem?August 2, 2022 12:35 pm at 12:35 pm #2111278Baby SquirrelParticipant
Have a פרומע מענטש stand outside by the door of the shul and turn away anyone who shows up not dressed tzniusly.
Shuls are made for men to daven. Women may only come if they are quiet, proper, and tznius. Otherwise, tear down the mechitzah and bring the status of the shul back to how it was originally where only men are granted permission to enter. It’s as simple as that.August 2, 2022 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #2111324
CS, Hadorah: Had this been an old discussion regarding Rabbeinu Tam’s tefilin or a discussion on what bracho to make on various cereals or a discussion on what your favorite flavor ice cream is, the fact that the thread was from 2013 would not have merited your meltdown decrying why revive such a dated discussion. The issues are still present and applicable today as much as then. But since this involves the uncomfortable discussion of tznius, oh no, how can I tell my wife and daughters that their skirt is too short or tight!, therefore let’s bury the issue under the carpet and pretend everything is well in Holland and there’s nothing to talk about and no issue to discuss. Yet we all know there is an issue and it is the responsibility of fathers and husbands to insure that it is rectified.
takah: Why would you even think the problem is with the Rebbetzin rather than those she needs to correct?August 2, 2022 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #2111389Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
It is understandable that this problem raises up again. See hemline index – an economic theory that the hemlines raise and drop with the stock market.August 2, 2022 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #2111463dovrosenbaumParticipant
Hire a mashgicha to sit by the entrance to the ezras noshim & send away women dressed inmodestlyAugust 2, 2022 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #2111481Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Stopping peaking behind the mehitzah would also work.August 3, 2022 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2111565dovrosenbaumParticipant
BH I daven in a shul where very few women show up, those who do are old, and there is a high mechitza.August 3, 2022 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #2111746
Dov, why do you feel it is better that way?
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