June 15, 2008 5:07 am at 5:07 am #1236421
Please provide your suggestions how to increase Tzinius awareness in our communities, and how to enforce the proper decorum amongst the noshim.March 21, 2017 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1241225
Give out free tznius awareness shirts.March 21, 2017 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #1241242
“This topic contains 1 voice and has 214 replies.”??March 21, 2017 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #1241247
And make sure it’s written in big black letters on a red shortsleeves t-shirts.March 21, 2017 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1241284bmyerParticipant
Throw rocks.March 21, 2017 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1241286
Yekke – it’s including all the JosephsMarch 21, 2017 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1241259
It’s actually a good question Joseph. I wish I knew the answer.
I know of someone who had some kind of incentive program for the teenagers in her neighborhood. It must have been at least somewhat successful since I heard about it from one of these teenagers who had a lot of hakaras hatov to her and told me about something the teenagers were doing to show their appreciation.
Granted, this teenager was not dressed tzniusly (although I don’t know how she dressed before this), but the fact that they felt positively about it was a good sign.
I think that most of these teenagers need for it to be given over in a positive way, which is why this was a good idea.
I don’t know what could be done for adults. I know they have some kind of organization that organizes meetings for women to discuss and learn about tznius. I was a bit skeptical when I heard about it, but then someone who was going to them told me about it, and I had a better impression of them after speaking to her.
I think that most people who have issues with tznius nowadays need some kind of “support group” to work on it, since it clearly is not simple for them. That is probably a good idea for any middah that people have a hard time with and need to work on.March 21, 2017 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1241359rebshidduchParticipant
By not talking to boys.March 22, 2017 2:06 am at 2:06 am #1241400bmyerParticipant
It’s the job of the husbands to make sure their wives dress tzniusly.
So to answer the question the men should have more yiras shomayim and tell their wives to dress tzniusly or their getting a divorce…
(the problem is the only people that would do this their wives already dress tzniusly)March 22, 2017 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1241406
How about writing on the shirt “I &hearts Tneniut”? How about teaching girls and women hilchot tzeniut?March 22, 2017 6:18 am at 6:18 am #1241420
bmyer – I agree with you, but what about the single girls?
I have heard that in some cases, the wives dress the way they do because it’s what their husbands want.
I would also imagine that in the case of the single girls, it’s not negatively affecting their dating possibilities or they would dress tzniusly. Maybe if more boys insisted they would only date girls who dress tzniusly, it would help.
Avi K – I don’t think the issue is usually lack of knowledge.March 22, 2017 6:20 am at 6:20 am #1241427
Todays generation [and I mean the parents, not just the kids] has been bought up with an attitude of complacency, self-righteousness and enough ga’vah to ensure that mussar is totally ineffective. Where in the previous generations a rav could impose rules and regulations to ensure the Kedusha of his Kehilla wasn’t compromised, nowadays that would result in a mass Exodus from the Shul in question into a “breakaway minyan”, or worse – with the Kehilla totally ignoring and degrading the Rav. In todays day of multi-options, technology induced laziness and selfishness, nobody is going to change their way of life – or in this specific question, their mode of dress – just because you try force them to.
The age of the stick is over, for most practical purposes. Its time to introduce the carrot.
These same people who would oppose any takanos enforced by a Rav are people who are [somewhat] Y’rei Shamayim and Bnei Aliyah. They are people who do strive to do better in Avoidas Hashem. It’s not that they are bad people, they just react wrongly to external pressure. The trick is to motivate them.
Motivation doesn’t have to be in the form of prizes. That type of carrot would be almost useless to adults, and in the most case harmful to children who will be performing for the prizes instead of understanding whats right [TBD – difference between a reward and an incentive]. Motivation can be in a spiritual sense, or equally effectively, on an emotional level. You’ll notice that most of todays succesful “World Renowned Speakers” are not working with Mussar, they are working with Chizzuk.
The most catchy phenomena today is the group-segula-shtick. People are somehow much happier to undertake kabbalas in Avoidas Hashem for Bein Odom Lechaveiro than for Bein Odom Lamakom. It works. I’ve seen countless people improve in Shmiras Halashon, in Limmud Torah, in Tefilla etc. as a zchus for someone they know. Make a group text to forward to at least ten people, and everyone is in.
I know of a shul where talking during tefillah/krias haTorah was an issue for a while. The Rav tried dozens of times to put a stop to it, but to no avail. One week, a regular mispallel got up and emotionally asked of everyone to stop talking. He was childless for twenty years, and he asked that as a zechus for him, people should not talk in the Beis HaMedrash. From then, the shul was silent – and a year later, he had a beautiful baby girl.
No amount of letters or takanos can silence people who want to talk. You’ve got to aim at their hearts, and change what they want.March 22, 2017 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1241445
I vote for Joseph to yell Zonah at everyone who dresses in a way he deems untzniutMarch 22, 2017 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1241447
Lilmod, I do. The proof is that when the level of Jewish education went up so did the level of observance. If you ask these girls and women why they dress this way they will tell you that that is the custom (מינהג has the same letters as גהינם). They simply do not realize that hey are violating the Halacha.March 22, 2017 8:32 am at 8:32 am #1241446
So to answer Joseph directly, I disagree with two attitudes expressed in the OP:
(1) The main issue is not a lack of awareness. People know and understand the issues. But it’s difficult. More difficult, apparently, than you or I or any male can appreciate. There’s a Yetzer Hara. People need a wake-up call to encourage them to take any upwards leap. Provide the correct inspiration, and you’ll see a positive response.
(2) “Forcing the decorum” is a battle not worth fighting. It would be much more effective and practical (and probably ethical, but that’s exactly the discussion you wanted to inspire) to enthuse them about tznius without having to fight against them.
If the issue is awareness – just giving a list of facts is pointless. Just giving a shiur chizuk is also pointless. You’ll notice that chizzuk by nature dissipates. They used to say in Yeshiva “A good mussar shmuz lasts until supper”. The trick is to get induce a euphoric-chizuk mood, and attempt to force a kabbalah whilst they are still on a high. (Think הרואה סוטה בקלקולה יזיר עצמו מן היין. Specifically after seeing a Nes Nigleh in the Beis Hamikdash, which is the most inspirational sight possible, you should make a kabbalah.) Then even when the inspiration dissolves, the kabbalah will hopefully last somewhat.
I once heard from an International speaker that the only way to give a good Internet Asifa (he has spoken in many) is “15 Minutes ‘Kol Nidrei’, 15 Minutes of Information, followed by 20 Minutes of ‘Neila'”.March 22, 2017 10:15 am at 10:15 am #1241586
In all serious there is a well known Speaker who gave a mussor speech about the tzniut of Sarah Emainu and tied it to some exercises. Not only did the speech not reduce the breech of tzniut, the speech was mocked and the speaker himself was villified and had to slightly back down from his speech and some places cancelled his speaking engagements and he was not invited other palcesMarch 22, 2017 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1241704
Yekke – Very nice!March 22, 2017 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1241712
I think it’s important to note that the community is actually doing quite well tznius-wise.March 22, 2017 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1241718
“I vote for Joseph to yell Zonah at everyone who dresses in a way he deems untzniut”
He does, online, behind the relative safety of anonymity.March 22, 2017 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1241717
“and how to enforce the proper decorum amongst the noshim.”
each husband/father should address this with his wife/daughter. if he cant, he should go to his Rav for direction.
all consumers, especially those who control the payment to the stores, should take a stand against those stores “frum stores” that sell inappropriate clothing to frum women. money speaks very loudly.
after that, you cant enforce yiras shamayim.March 22, 2017 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1241709
Avi – that may have been the case back then, but it is not the case today. The girls in every Bais Yaakov know the basic halachos of tznius. And all seminaries (BY or otherwise) teach hilchos tznius.
In one (modern/modern orthodox) seminary I taught in, the issue of tznius was being discussed at a teachers’ meeting. One of the teachers said when she administered a test on hilchos tznius, there were girls who were sitting there wearing short sleeves as they were taking the test and writing the sources about how your upper arms have to be covered!March 22, 2017 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1241757
There have been many Chumras introduced and ive said it before , When you start adding too many chumras and people find out its just a chumra and not Halacha, they will question everything you saidMarch 22, 2017 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1241771
Lilmod, it depends on how short. According to the Mishna Berura only the upper arm needs to be covered. One could push the envelope and add a tefach (someone told me that Rav Brovender even paskened that l’maaseh). Just out of curiosity, how well did the girls do on the test?March 22, 2017 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #1241779misteryudiParticipant
Yes, this should definitely be enforced and encouraged by men, because they of course understand the inner conflict a woman has when struggling with issues of tznius.
LOLOLOLMarch 22, 2017 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1241787
Avi – That is why I deliberately wrote “the upper arm” – I didn’t want to get into anything controversial. When I wrote that the girls were wearing short sleeves, I did not mean that the elbows were showing or even less than a tefach above their elbows – I mean that their “upper arms” were clearly showing regardless of the possible definitions of “upper arms”. In other words, they were wearing cap sleeves.
btw, this idea of adding a tefach is not at all poshut. I believe it is a misconsception. In the non-BY seminaries, many people (at least the students) used to think that was the case, and many of the schools allowed it. However, over the last 30 years, people have begun to realize that it’s a problem, and I think that most of the seminariess no longer allow it.
It seems to be based on the halacha that b’dieved a man can say krias Shema in front of a girl who has less than a tefach exposed, but that does not mean that she is allowed to have that exposed l’chatchila.
In any case, it would be less than a tefach, not a tefach. And when girls wear sleeves that are just under a tefach above their elbows, more ends up showing since their sleeves are not glued to their arms. That is also the problem with having sleeves that are above their elbows even if one holds that the elbows themselves don’t have to be covered.March 22, 2017 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1241789
Misteryudi – they are the ones who are affected by it. If men were treating women badly, no one would have a problem with the women discussing it.March 22, 2017 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1241791
One of the problems is that girls don’t realize that tznius is a bein adam l’chaveiro issue and that they are being cruel to men when they dress untzniusly.
Many of the girls who dress untzniusly are davka very nice people who would never dream of hurting someone else. If they were made aware of the fact that it’s not nice to dress untzniusly, I think they would stop.
Often it is presented to the girls as something they have to do for men. But the way it is presented sometimes turns them off, and their reaction is, “Why do I have to dress a certain way because men have a problem?” Which is a ridiculous reaction because men didn’t choose to “have a problem”, and it’s not actually a problem since Hashem created the world that way for a reason and it is the way it is supposed to be. However, if it is not explained correctly, that is the reaction.
I once discussed it with a student who was having the above issue. When I explained it in terms of “bein adam l’chaveiro” and how it’s being mean to men to dress untzniusly (since you are causing them to go to geninnom which is not very nice), she was mekabel.
But it was clearly a big chiddush to her as it had apparently never been presented to her that way before (she was not from a very Frum background and was attending a modern modern orthodox seminary, so I don’t know if this would be as true for someone from a different background, but I think there would still be some truth to it)March 22, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1241811
When someone has an allergy, the thing they are allergic too does not become illegal for everyone else. They are responsible for avoiding that which they are allergic to.March 22, 2017 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1241840
“and that they are being cruel to men when they dress untzniusly.”
That might be true, but it is a poor excuse to browbeat someone to dress according to the standards demanded by halacha. The standards demanded by halacha dont apply exclusively to when there are men around.March 22, 2017 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1241919misteryudiParticipant
I once had a greenhouse full of tropical plants. Someone told me it’s good I have the plants in a greenhouse, because without the greenhouse, the plants would all be eaten by squirrels. Well, it was winter time, and no squirrels were to be seen. So I took the plants out of the greenhouse. After all, no squirrels were around, right?
The plants died within a day.
So obviously, telling someone to put tropical plants in a greenhouse to protect them from squirrels is idiotic, even though it may may contain an element of sense. Because that’s not THE reason to put the plants in a greenhouse.
How’s that for an analogy.March 22, 2017 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1242219
“The standards demanded by halacha dont apply exclusively to when there are men around.”
Many halachic requirements of tznius are only halachicly applicable where men are or might be, and aren’t applicable in areas exclusively occupied by women.March 22, 2017 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #1242223
Apushatayid & misteryudi – no one said that you don’t have to dress tzniusly when there are no men around. I was just explaining why men have a right to be concerned about the situation.
RY – Terrible analogy. It’s not an allergy. An allergy by definition is not the norm. You wouldn’t refer to an inability to handle poison as an allergy. If the Torah has established the fact that normal men are affected by certain things and are not allowed to see them, that is not an allergy. According to the Torah, dressing untzniusly is lifnei iver.
Additionally, most schools don’t allow peanuts on the premises if there is even one student who is allergic.March 22, 2017 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1242265
So now you’re saying women are poison?March 22, 2017 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1242266
Women should walk around with knives. If approached by men, they should use them judiciously.March 22, 2017 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1242302
“So now you’re saying women are poison?”
So take what I said out of context, why don’t you?March 22, 2017 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1242304
How could you say such a thing?March 22, 2017 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1242311
because you did.March 22, 2017 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1242314
Truly horrifying that you would say that.March 22, 2017 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #1242319
Wait, did what? (My previous post was posted before yours was approved.)March 22, 2017 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #1242321
Take what I said out of context – that is horrifying.
You are trolling, right? I assume you are aware that you are completely taking what I said out of context, and you are just trolling, right?March 22, 2017 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1242324
What context?March 23, 2017 6:22 am at 6:22 am #1242339
Are you serious or trolling?March 23, 2017 6:26 am at 6:26 am #1242343
RY – I’m never sure if you’re serious or trolling. You sound like you are trolling in this case, but if your are serious, I’d be happy to explain tomorrow when I’m more awake, b”n. let me know if you are serious.March 23, 2017 7:23 am at 7:23 am #1242353
You do have to choose your words better, You were worried about being seeing Satire as fact, People lurking here (and LOTS of people lurk here) will see your post and get a negative view even if you dont think it was negative at allMarch 23, 2017 9:53 am at 9:53 am #1242455lakewhutParticipant
All jews are aware. Some care and some don’t. This is the reality.March 23, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1242487
Not only are some aware, they are actually Hostile and the way its presented in most cases increases that hostilityMarch 23, 2017 10:52 am at 10:52 am #1242529lakewhutParticipant
If they are hostile it means they are awareMarch 23, 2017 10:57 am at 10:57 am #1242563
If someone is hostile to something, its much more difficult to discuss. Just look what happend to the rabbi who gave the Zumba Tzniut Speech.
People protested and Not only was Tzniut not increased, he paid a personal price by being disinvited to places and not be invited to new ones.March 23, 2017 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1242574
its a topic that is very close to home and it needs to be addressed, at home.
you cant legislate or intimidate yiras shamayim.March 23, 2017 12:07 pm at 12:07 pm #1242625
“you cant legislate or intimidate yiras shamayim.”
And you can’t legislate eating kosher?
Halachas are, effectively, legislated. Thus, keeping kosher and keeping tznius is legislated.
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